alanw
Junior Member
Posts: 74
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Post by alanw on Mar 29, 2008 15:23:13 GMT -6
Hi,
Sorry to re-visit this topic yet again - just it seems as baffling as ever to me.
a) meaning of the note
I feel Benteen's initial understanding of the note, (backed up by Martini's comments) was that 'there was a big village ahead, containing large though unspecifed number of hostiles.
Nothing in the note stated that Custer's command was under any immediate threat itself, only that Benteen's men, plus those with the packs, plus the ammunition, would be needed if the regiment were to succeed in its ultimate mission, i.e. force the Indians back to their reservations
The worst case scenario at this stage would be that the village would escape. Custer never states that he will wait for Benteen before attacking. Therefore, Benteen's support would only help push home the attack.
Finally, if Custer needed extra men and ammunition to push home the attack, surely Reno would as well. Did Custer intend to join up again with Reno, or leave him with his 130 men and 125 rounds per man believing the Indians posed no realistic attacking threat? I believe Custer wanted Benteen to join the attack in general and for communications between the battalions be kept open so they could support each other.
As to Benteen's speed and his actions after reaching Reno Hill, well thats another story!!!
Regards Alan
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Post by Diane Merkel on Mar 30, 2008 10:25:26 GMT -6
The note has been discussed a lot, and I'm sure that 100 years from now, using whatever media is around then, people will still be discussing it. I hope some of our less frequent visitors will chime in with their thoughts. To me, it speaks most to Cooke's frame of mind. The "PS" seems frantic because it was also the last line of the body of the note.
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Post by mcaryf on Mar 30, 2008 13:24:17 GMT -6
Hi Diane
Actually I read it differently. I think that Cooke was trying to emphasise the "bring packs" part as compared with the "come quick".
My reading of Custer's intention is that he thought the village was relatively undefended. There are a couple of comments one from Martini and one from the Crows that suggest that there were not many warriors visible. However, the warriors must be somewhere. Custer was expecting to capture the village but concerned that his success could be negated if the missing warriors turn up and capture the train. This was a concern of his at Washita.
Thus he really did want Benteen to act as an escort for the train.
In previous threads I have also suggested that Custer might well have thought that Benteen was behind rather than in front of the train. So in telling Benteen to bring it, he was not anticipating that meaning Benteen should turn round and go backwards.
Regards
Mike
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Post by Mike Powell on Mar 30, 2008 14:58:38 GMT -6
Focusing strictly on the PS, I think it unlikely this was added for emphasis. It lacks any emphatic terms such as "especially", "important", "critical", etc. It strikes me as only repetition and my guess would be caused by distraction, either external or within the state of Cooke's mind.
But, how was Cooke composing? If he was working exclusively from completed directions given to him before he began and if he composed without external interruption then his state of mind may be the answer; too addled or elevated to clearly remember what he wrote as he wrote it.
Alternatively, Cooke may have been receiving dictation. In that case an interruption could have occurred in the train of dictation. Custer, caused to break away for any reason, may have had one of those moments when, without the written words in his hands, you simply repeat a point. I doubt there would have been any "Please read it back to me from the top" spoken. I've seen this sort of thing occur; the subordinate has a choice to speak up and say "You already said that, Sir", but why not just jot the words down again? After all, it's what the boss said and now he sees your hand move in response to his words, so everyone's happy.
Yours,
Mike Powell
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Post by mcaryf on Mar 30, 2008 15:23:07 GMT -6
Hi Mike
Since "bring packs" was the last item in the main text of the note before Cooke signed it, I do not see how your interpretation of an interruption works as the item is clearly already there.
It seems more likely to me that Custer might have shouted be sure he knows he has to bring the packs i.e. adding emphasis not content. If the PS had said ammunition packs or something else slightly different then you could be right but repeating the same thing albeit spelt differently implies emphasis to me unless it is the plural that makes it different.
Regards
mike
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Post by clw on Mar 30, 2008 17:13:24 GMT -6
Benteen in a letter to Mrs. Benteen, July 4, 1876... "I have the original, but it is badly torn and it should be preserved. So keep this letter, as the matter may be of interest hereafter, likewise of use." At least he got the "interest hereafter" part right.
Why was he so careful to save the note?
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Post by Dark Cloud on Mar 30, 2008 17:33:49 GMT -6
Because it's a terrible, terrible order, with no time, location, intention, anything except repetitive nag. If typical of Custer - and I expect it didn't violate the established parameters - it pretty well slams the commander should the fiasco become an issue. But I think Benteen was referring to the public finding it of interest. Either way, he was correct. As ever.
I agree he was concerned for the train so near the village and in danger, having his best horse and ammo specific to his weapons, plus all the other ammo, plus everything needed to continue without returning to Terry and the Far West.
It's really a note of exhortation. It's on!
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Post by BrokenSword on Mar 30, 2008 17:47:07 GMT -6
clw- "...Why was he so careful to save the note?..."
Benteen, no doubt, knew that a major F... uh... SNAFU like the LBH was bound to lead to some tough questions for all involved.
When NASA has a catastrophe, there is a term in the procedures they use. I can't remember it exactly but its something like 'seal the logs'. Meaning, they immediately lock and seize all documentation for the inevitable investigation/s.
Benteen may have been a little ahead of his time in that regard.
M
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Post by BrokenSword on Mar 30, 2008 18:05:23 GMT -6
DC - "...It's really a note of exhortation. It's on!..."
...Or, as Sherlock might have put it, "The game's afoot, Watson!"
I know I'll be argued with unmercifully, and by the usual suspects, but... by the time Benteen reached Reno, it was 'game over.' Indians 1 - Custer 0.
M
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Post by wild on Mar 31, 2008 0:39:46 GMT -6
It's really a note of exhortation. It's on!
How does one differentate between an order and an exhortation?Is there something in the note which demotes it to a form of second class communication.Perhaps it was the mention of the big village which led Benteen to believe the note was not an order.Certainly I can see how "bring packs"would reduce an order to that of say a greeting or salutation. In the years following the massacre huge advances were made in the field of military exhortation and to-day that exortation from Custer can simply be expressed as Hoo Rah
Final scene--Last Stand Hill---Custer in extremis.
Custer Cookey old chap pray do tell what word dist thou send forth to our dear brother Benteen
Cookey My captain I didst urge upon him haste with all our impedimenta.
Custer Oh Cookey woe is me for that is but an exhortation. Breaths his last Curtain
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Post by crzhrs on Mar 31, 2008 7:59:06 GMT -6
We have two different accounts from Martini:
1: RCOI: I saw Custer & Cooke talking (didn't know about what) Cooke called him and gave him a note to take to Benteen (didn't know what was in note)
2: Years later: Custer told him directly to go to Benteen and to come quick with packs. Cooke called him and gave him a note.
Martini never stated whether Custer/Cooke were anxious or concerned about the situation. He stated the village was empty with only a few children visible.
Cooke probably wrote the note on horseback. How difficult would that be to write legibly and clearly if the horse was moving about?
The note is cryptic at best with vague instructions which leads one to believe there was no imminent danger or threat to Custer, there was time to plan, and giving the impression that Benteen was to join somewhere (not specifically with Custer) in the battle plan and to ensure the packs were brought up--where & whom was not specified.
Once Martini contacted Benteen there was no evidence of Martini cautioning Benteen about huge numbers of Indians, no fighting, no danger, let alone any warriors appearing.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 31, 2008 8:47:29 GMT -6
I would think that a trained horse could be made to stand still with a horseman in the saddle under most conditions. If the horse could not stand still there above a empty village then it would run off in few minutes when the Indians arrived. Writing while sitting still could be a problem depending on the note pad. I would guess being next to the Big Village had the Adrenalin running causing rapid thoughts and short written thoughts.
We can tell when Adrenalin is running when someone talks on the radio and the words come out in the main thoughts rather than proper English structure. (As if I know proper structure) Come On, Be Quick, Big Village, Bring Packs another shot of Adrenalin PS Bring Packs It was excitement not fear that caused the note to written that way is my opinion.
During a decoy operation when you hear the vehicle begin to slow the Adrenalin starts which is before anything happens. It must have happened when next to the Big Village I would guess. They didn't need to see the Indians to begin to feel it rushing through their blood.
AZ Ranger
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Post by wild on Mar 31, 2008 10:16:42 GMT -6
AZ Adrenalin is triggered by excitment which in turn is triggered by extreme emotion.Fear could be described as extreme emotion.
crzhrs and giving the impression that Benteen was to join somewhere (not specifically with Custer) in the battle plan and to ensure the packs were brought up--where & whom was not specified Now just where would Benteen get directions as to the deployment of his unit and packs?
Once Martini contacted Benteen there was no evidence of Martini cautioning Benteen about huge numbers of Indians, no fighting, no danger, let alone any warriors appearing. Agreed Martin was a Westpoint grad and was well able to advise a civil war colonel as to the tactical situation.
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Post by mcaryf on Mar 31, 2008 10:49:16 GMT -6
I will just add one further thought. According to Martini they had proceeded some way down Cedar Couley or whatever route before he was sent back.
Ask yourself why Custer sent the message then? The most logical answer is that it is nothing to do with where Custer knew or thought Benteen was, but rather where Custer was about to go. In my view he was expecting to be in action fairly shortly with the prospect of warriors scattering about the place making it more difficult to get a messenger through to the rear. So the timing of the message was probably not because it was suddenly more urgent or suddenly Custer knew where Benteen was but rather this might be the last good opportunity to get a lone messenger through to Benteen. The message to bring the packs is a reasonable task to give Benteen as per my original post but it was by no means a desperate cry for help.
Regards
Mike
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Post by crzhrs on Mar 31, 2008 11:12:31 GMT -6
<but it was by no means a desperate cry for help>
Very true. If we are to believe Kanipe & Martini there did not appear to be any imminent danger and/or threat of warriors attacking. Custer may have been planning ahead and wanted Benteen and the packs brought up while Custer continued forward. Where is the question. More than likely wherever Benteen thought would be a good point of attack.
More than likely Benteen had the experience and knowledge of joining in wherever he felt he could make a difference--IF he was nearing Custer.
As for Martini not being communicative with Benteen--then as the whole saying goes: "what we have here is a problem of communication"
Benteen did point out to Martini that his horse was wounded. Martini apparently was unaware. But he was aware of Reno supposedly killing Indians left & right (Edgerly overheard him tell other enlisted men)
Why didn't Edgerly relay that to Benteen?
Apparently the real problem here was Custer and/or Cooke's choice of the messenger or whoever decided Martini was suitable as an orderly.
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