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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 31, 2008 20:16:36 GMT -6
AZ Adrenalin is triggered by excitment which in turn is triggered by extreme emotion.Fear could be described as extreme emotion.
Adrenalin is triggered by a stessor can be fear, excitement, loud noise or light etc. Both a predator and the prey feel its effect.
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Post by Melani on Apr 3, 2008 8:31:27 GMT -6
I agree with Diane and AZ that the "P.S." is an indication of excitement. And I would think any instruction from a superior officer in a battle situation would constitute an order. I also think that Martini's RCOI testimony is more likely to be accurate than his later statement, being closer to the event. Years later, when it was still considered a big hairy deal, he had the Golden General speaking to him directly, giving him that touch of personal contact with the Fallen Hero. There is something similar in Katherine Fougera's book, a scene where Keogh loans Comanche to Frank Gibson for a buffalo hunt because Frank's horse was lame. Had to get her daddy up onto Comanche's sacred back somehow!
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Post by AZ Ranger on Apr 30, 2008 4:59:43 GMT -6
I will just add one further thought. According to Martini they had proceeded some way down Cedar Couley or whatever route before he was sent back. Ask yourself why Custer sent the message then? The most logical answer is that it is nothing to do with where Custer knew or thought Benteen was, but rather where Custer was about to go. In my view he was expecting to be in action fairly shortly with the prospect of warriors scattering about the place making it more difficult to get a messenger through to the rear. So the timing of the message was probably not because it was suddenly more urgent or suddenly Custer knew where Benteen was but rather this might be the last good opportunity to get a lone messenger through to Benteen. The message to bring the packs is a reasonable task to give Benteen as per my original post but it was by no means a desperate cry for help. Regards Mike I think it shows Custer's intent to not support Reno immediately as promised. He saw something that caused him to change his plan. Since he would not be in the valley supporting Reno he wanted Benteen to do so and make sure the packtrain was secure. For sure Custer would know that Reno would be engaged and need the ammunition. I can't believe Custer's new plan was: Don't support Reno in a timely manner. Don't allow Benteen to support Reno by having Benteen come to Custer's battalion. Make sure Reno gets no ammunition by taking the packtrain to Custer's location. AZ Ranger
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Post by El Crab on Aug 4, 2008 21:16:46 GMT -6
Its kind of simple: Benteen was ordered to the left, since Custer did not know the whereabouts of the village(s). When Custer was in Cedar Coulee, the main quarry was found and Benteen's mission to the left ceased to be necessary. And Benteen had been told if nothing was found he was to return to the regiment's main trail.
All Custer's note was saying to Benteen was that the village they were aware of had been found, he was to come in on the trail of the rest of the regiment. As was previously ordered.
The one thing that's subject to conjecture is if Custer knew Benteen had already moved back to the main trail. He sent back an immigrant on the main trail, so it might be guessed that Custer either knew or figured Benteen had already ended his scout and rejoined the trail.
But I think if Custer wanted Benteen to actually join him, he would have worded it so. He just wanted Benteen to bring his battalion into the fray. Custer likely had enough faith in Benteen as a subordinate to not tell him what he needed to do beyond getting into the battle. And to make certain that the packs would be safe. Which, of course, might seem like two contradictory tasks. It makes me think Custer knew Benteen was in close proximity to the pack train. The train had its own battalion to support it, but they were just following the main trail. Custer wasn't issuing specific directives, which makes me think again that Custer was aware that it wasn't Benteen's first rodeo. He didn't feel it was necessary to tell Benteen EXACTLY what to do.
Come on. (Get back on our trail as originally stated, if you haven't done so already) Big village (We've found it). Bring packs. (You're the closest battalion to the train, make sure they are coming along the same direction as your battalion). Be quick (Come as quickly as you can). P.S. Bring packs (Did I mention to make sure the train is secure? Because its important)
I don't think Custer wanted Benteen to physically bring in the packs, as much as he just wanted Benteen to mind the packtrain's presence. And either the message was brief because Custer trusted Benteen's judgement to know what to do, or possibly Benteen knew more than he later let on to knowing. Either way, it wasn't a cry for help from a beleaguered regimental commander, nor an order for Benteen to join Custer specifically. Just to get into the game and mind the train.
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tatanka
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Post by tatanka on Aug 5, 2008 5:47:15 GMT -6
I don't agree. The come quick message was signed by Cooke, Custers' adjutant. So as Benteen knew Cooke was with Custer he would automatically think the note meant he was to join Custer. The bring packs part was that Custer saw the size of the village and knew he would need more ammunition.
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Post by crzhrs on Aug 5, 2008 6:55:47 GMT -6
Benteen was not aware of Custer dividing the command after Benteen left. The note was cryptic at best and could be interpreted a number of ways. I agree with the Crab that Custer's intention was for Benteen to stop his scout and rejoin the main command.
Of course, if Custer had immediately recalled Benteen when he ordered Reno to attack or at least informed him of what was taking place all this controversy would have been avoided.
Custer's failure to do so contributed to the disaster.
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Post by shan on Aug 5, 2008 6:56:15 GMT -6
El Crab, thanks for that, it is nice to see a cool well reasoned argument that, as far as I am concerned at least, makes a good deal of sense.
On a different tack, speaking, { Technically that should be writing I suppose, } as somebody who dips in and out of these boards and reads most of what is being discussed, I find it very odd that very few contributors seem to wish to either examine, or discuss the shape the battle took after Custer left the bluffs. I would have thought that that part of the battle, and what happened to the command after that, was, and is, the main reason the majority of us to were drawn to the subject in the first place.
Now I realise that the sheer lack of evidence makes it harder to pin down this or that troop movement, or indeed the movements of well known band leaders in the way that we can supposedly do with Reno's part of the action. But this doesn't deter many people taking what I at least, find to be nothing more than a fairly simple note; the one from Cooke to Benteen, and in the process of trying to extract more meaning from it than the words contain, make it as almost as mysterious as what subsequently happened to Custer and his immediate command.
I'm guessing here, but maybe the lack of discussion revolves around the fear of being shot down for laying out our theories, and in the end that's all they can ever be, theories, and I include myself in that category by the way, but if not, then what can the reason be?
As I say, anyone trawling back over this board for six months or maybe even more, will find almost no discussion of events beyond the possible move to MTF, but never ending interpretations of whether Reno was to blame or not.
shan
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Post by Dark Cloud on Aug 5, 2008 7:35:01 GMT -6
Crab is exactly right, I think.
Yet again, there is no "come quick" message. It's "be quick." Here's the difference:
"Get ready for school. Be quick."
"Get ready for school. Come quick."
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Post by elisabeth on Aug 5, 2008 8:42:07 GMT -6
Shan, you're right, we do seem to have been sidestepping the main issue for a while! And your explanation is probably right, too. Many of us have had a go at one time or another -- if not full-scale battle scenarios, at least theories about particular phases of the action -- and have been shot down to varying degrees. The problem is that I think a lot of us (and I certainly plead guilty here) become a bit entrenched with regard to our own pet theory/theories; when others disagree, the instinctive response is to button one's lip, mutter "well, I think that's what happened", and discuss it no further.
However ... the Benteen/note question is possibly somewhat bigger than it looks. The early theory about the battle was that Custer attacked at MTF, was repulsed, and that "a rout, a panic" ensued all the way to LSH. Once the Indian accounts became available, especially with the unanimity about a long period of slow firing before things started to happen, that had to change. The focus of puzzlement then became: what on earth was Custer up to? First, why no Custer-style instant attack? And second, why deploy three companies along Battle Ridge as he did? The favourite answer, for many years, has been: he was waiting for Benteen. It's particularly popular, obviously, with those who want to paint Benteen as the villain of the piece, and Custer as helpless martyr. ("Betrayed!!!") But ... if we re-interpret the note as suggested by El Crab above, that explanation goes out of the window, and we have to look for other motivations behind Custer's actions. So I don't think this is at all a worthless exercise. What Custer truly expected of Benteen may be key to the whole thing. If he was not hanging around waiting for Benteen to join him where he was, with the Battle Ridge contingent "holding the door open for Benteen" -- what was he doing?
I'll be brave and try out a theory, if you like. (And no doubt be shot down in flames.) "Come on" may not be the colloquialism that it looks like to us, but more of a military order -- "come forward as ordered", "advance". In which case: * Custer always intended Benteen to keep going into the LBH valley. * He's visualising a four-pronged attack. * He's got Reno (he thinks) still engaging the southern end of the "big village". He himself will get in position to attack the northern end. He's got Keogh's companies poised to attack the east side. Benteen will attack the western flank. * Thus in a sense he is "waiting for Benteen", but not for Benteen to join him -- he's waiting to see signs of Benteen pitching in to the west or southwest. He'll then launch his other two prongs in a neatly co-ordinated attack, as per Washita. * What he doesn't know is (a) that Benteen isn't where he thinks he is, having either found the route unfeasible, or second-guessed Custer, or both; and (b) that his first prong, Reno, has already withdrawn. If only one of these things had happened, he'd still be fine. The two together are what lead to disaster. * By the time he realises that there's no sign of any cavalry presence in the valley, and returns to consolidate with Keogh, it's too late. Keogh's wing is now fighting for its life, and his own is too weak to relieve it. * The rest we know. OK, I await the ribald laughter ...
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tatanka
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Post by tatanka on Aug 5, 2008 8:56:11 GMT -6
At the risk of being labelled a stubborn g*t, I still think Custer wanted Benteen to join him. The key here is the packs. If, as Elisabeth suggested, Benteen was expected to attack from a different direction, was he going to keep all the packs to himself? How were the other units to get access to them? Custer still expected the Indians to flee and I think Benteens' job was to intercept them. But then again, I could be wrong!
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Post by Dark Cloud on Aug 5, 2008 9:09:12 GMT -6
What is so awful about being blown out of the water, or having to address the arguments made against your position? If you cannot argue your point under the delicate pressure of a forum, it might have severe internal deficiencies. Better to address it early. People don't buy it, their problem.
E is saying that despite being seen (he'd waved from on high in case there was a chance the Indians wouldn't have noticed him, fired into the village, etc.), he expected to be left alone by the huge numbers of Sioux till Benteen and the train arrived so he could then launch a coordinated attack? He'd have to be on high ground to see all of that, and only Weir Point provides that ability. Which he left behind him.
He'd seen the terrible ground north - ambush country - and may or may not have visualized a northern crossing, and he'd seen the wonderful cavalry ground the village was on. He may have tried to reach it over MTCF, but otherwise, the attempts to keep him on the offensive to history are, let us say, cramped logic if he did not. That's the Custer known to history: there it is, hit it.
He and several of his officers are found at the top of a hill NOT surrounded by his men, but rather at nearly the thinnest point suggesting they'd been blown off their horses. That does not scream Organized Defense. They were run to ground, with threads of corpses south and west, and suggestions of delaying actions overrun in sequence on the way there. It fits. It's simple. It requires nothing beyond the 7th's ability.
Custer just wanted the packs accessible at need and and protected to such a location by his experienced and sharp underling. He'd need ammo for his weapons (some say different from the .45 of the troopers), they'd need the grain and supplies, and surely did not want the ammo in the hands of the enemy. So near such a huge village, it was a target.
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tatanka
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Post by tatanka on Aug 5, 2008 9:34:42 GMT -6
DC. I have been blown out of the water more than a few times, I can tell you! The "stubborn" bit was light hearted.
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Post by elisabeth on Aug 5, 2008 10:44:11 GMT -6
tatanka, I know a lot of people would agree with you on the Benteen question. The only things that trouble me about the Benteen-to-join-Custer interpretation are: (1) Custer sends for Benteen to join him -- then promptly moves in the opposite direction? It does not compute. (2) It imposes quite a delay before Benteen can contribute anything to the proceedings. First he has to come over the bluffs to Weir Point or thereabouts, then he has to traipse down Cedar Coulee (or whichever we think he used), then he has to make his way to wherever Custer is by then to receive his next orders. Meanwhile, the situation -- as Custer must have anticipated, having fought battles before -- has now totally changed from what it was when he sent the note. Given Benteen's abilities and experience, it'd make far more sense (it seems to me, anyway) to depend on him to "pitch in" wherever the best opportunity offers: from the west/southwest, from the south in support of Reno, or wherever events permit. (3) Martini fully expected Custer to have charged through the village by the time he delivered the note to Benteen. Had he done so, Benteen would have arrived at Custer's last known position to find it empty of both soldiers and Indians, and all the action taking place in the valley ...
The problem of units having access to the packs is a tricky one whatever Custer meant. If we accept the Benteen-to-join-Custer thing, this means the packs waltz straight past Reno, who by now must need re-supply, in order to get to an outfit that hasn't yet fired a shot. If we take it that the packs were to stay in Benteen's rear while he attacked, then nobody can get to them until the bulk of the fighting is over. If the idea is to park them somewhere relatively safe, e.g. the bluffs, and maybe send runners from/to each unit with fresh ammunition ...? I don't know. There seems no satisfactory solution, really.
DC: yes, but. We've got on the one hand the "buffalo hunt" and "driving the soldiers" accounts from some Indians, which would support your scenario; but on the other, from others, we've got the long period of slow firing, which suggests it took a while before things went bad. How about this? The Custer known to history would be perfectly capable of being distracted from the immediate problem (too many Indians, let's get out of here) by the lure of a Better Idea (hey, let's see if there's a better ford to the north). He'd already had one Better Idea that day: let's not support Reno directly, let's circle round the bluffs and hit them from the flank. And Washita shows this tendency of his in spades. Lots of Indians? Coming from what must be other villages down the valley? Never mind, let's take a detailed inventory of everything we're going to burn. And while we're at it, let's go through an amusing pretend marriage ceremony with this pretty squaw here. Elliott? Oh, I'm sure he'll find his way home. ----- Only very late on in the day did the notion penetrate that "oops, this is getting serious, let's get out". So it could very well have been the same at LBH: the short attention span, the lure of the Better Idea. To posit that he was on the offensive until almost the end is by no means Custer-worship, though it's often presented that way; it's a pretty severe indictment of his common sense. And, possibly, a just one.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Aug 5, 2008 10:54:27 GMT -6
The point being, post MTC it wasn't his hand on History's Tiller. It was the hand of the Sioux and Cheyenne. He's been cut off and pushed around, and everything suggests reaction not pro-active offense.
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walkingstar
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Post by walkingstar on Aug 5, 2008 12:12:53 GMT -6
El Crab, a wonderfully thought out summation. Shan, a valid point that needs to be addressed.
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