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Post by clw on Aug 22, 2008 10:24:49 GMT -6
If dust was hanging around that long then Custer's dust from heading down to MTC should still have been visible to Reno's command when they left the timber but nobody mentioned it. Well, just a guess... but I don't think anyone was looking for dust at that point in time.
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Post by mcaryf on Aug 22, 2008 10:56:44 GMT -6
Well you know they might have been looking to see where Custer had gone if they were thinking how to get back together with Custer and enough people had seen him on the bluffs to realise that was where he had probably gone.
The fact that Reno did not go that way possibly indicates that he was being truthful when he later said he was not aware that Custer had been on the bluffs.
Regards
Mike
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Post by clw on Aug 22, 2008 11:18:11 GMT -6
Logical Mike, that someone may have wondered if he might be near enough to rally on. But I'd bet they couldn't see out of their own dust from that flat out stampede.
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Post by rjsamp on Oct 12, 2008 18:10:50 GMT -6
I wouldn't worry about RENO and ammo per Custer's order to Benteen to bring up the ammo train. Reno simply sends a Sergeant over to the train when it comes up and gets one or two mules with their ammo packs and Benteen/MacDougal continue on to Custer. Reno's resupplied and the pacs are still on the way to Custer.
BTW "Come on" was the same order that Custer exhorted verbally at several ACW battles as well....Come on you Wolverines.....
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Post by AZ Ranger on Oct 16, 2008 5:28:39 GMT -6
I wouldn't worry about RENO and ammo per Custer's order to Benteen to bring up the ammo train. Reno simply sends a Sergeant over to the train when it comes up and gets one or two mules with their ammo packs and Benteen/MacDougal continue on to Custer. Reno's resupplied and the pacs are still on the way to Custer. BTW "Come on" was the same order that Custer exhorted verbally at several ACW battles as well....Come on you Wolverines..... Interesting that Custer used "Come On" to mean lets do battle rather than come to me. Maybe that explains why it was not a concern at RCOI. It could have been a common knowledge term of the era that has a different meaning from the actual words written. AZ Ranger
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Post by Dark Cloud on Oct 16, 2008 8:12:37 GMT -6
There is no order to Benteen from Custer to bring up the ammo train. There is the note saying bring the packs, with no mention of ammo as primary concern. The train took about an hour to all come in to Reno Hill.
Continuing to divide forces in the face of a superior enemy on ground that precludes deployment of cavalry to remote advantage is not sufficiently reasonable to append to Custer.
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Post by biggordie on Oct 16, 2008 9:02:57 GMT -6
The contexts in which the "Come on" was used are entirely different. In the rjsamp example, it was an exhortation to "Follow me!!" There is no sense of that same exhortation in the note to Benteen - the "Come On" in that simply meaning "Come Ahead" and with an additional order to "Be Quick."
The ammo packs idea originated with, I believe, Kuhlman in 1952 or whenever it was that Legend Into History was published. Kuhlman argued that only if Custer meant the ammo packs would the order make sense. Had Custer specified the ammo packs, Cooke could easily have mentioned that in the postscript. As it stands, the emphasis of the postscript is virtually meaningless, and certainly cannot be realistically construed as meaning the ammunition packs.
I think that Custer was attempting to get his more distant units into co-operating distance quickly, having seen the opposition he was facing and probably fearing that they might be cut oiff and gobbled up. "Fearing" may be too strong a word - maybe "considering " would be better.
In any event, the order meant whatever it meant, and since it was not obeyed, and the failure to obey made no difference in what happened to Custer after he crossed MTC, the great debates which have raged on this and other forums seem rather pointless to me.
One's interpretation of the note, as with Terry's instructions to Custer, seems mostly [MOSTLY] to be a product of one's opinion of the major players, and mostly [MOSTLY] used to buttress that opinion, or favorite theory, or whatever preconceived notions one has arrived at [and will NEVER be swayed from].
Gordie
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Post by bc on Oct 16, 2008 9:08:01 GMT -6
Come on: I could buy into that "come on" means to lets go into battle. I'd still like to see more references to it by Custer and others. I do know that "come up" was a common term used during the cw where it would be mentioned that so & so's brigade or division had "come up" which arguably could be the past tense version of the original command to come on. Come up meaning that someone's unit had been moved up from a reserve or rear position and then onto the battle line. Maybe a word search on the OR/Official record of the cw may turn up some common usage of the terms.
Bring packs: Seems to be that bring packs probably means to bring them all. The pack train probably had at least a few components such as: ammo, food, animal feed, water, and company/personal baggage. If you just needed one in an emergency, such as ammo, then an order similar to Hare's saying to get some ammo brought up ahead of the rest of the train would have probably been used. At the time of the note, Custer was not in battle and had expended any ammo. Earlier that morning, they had already carried with each troop what they thought was necessary for a battle.
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Post by bc on Oct 16, 2008 9:31:34 GMT -6
Be quick: When I was wearing out boot soles, we had a standard march and then double-time. I don't recall quick-time being used but it may have been. Back then I believe they called the faster pace as quick-march. Seems like they also had a term called the double-quick. Anyway quick was a common troop movement term used back then which meant more than just a walking pace.
I could see a simple note that may have commonly used during the cw to be something simple such as: Come on and be quick or come up and be quick.
I also think that if during the cw in a battle, a commander wanted someone to move to a certain position, such a position would be designated in the note otherwise it would just want someone to come up to the battle/battle line. Custer ignored such a specific order and instead rode to the sound of the guns at Gettysburg. That was his MO. Without a specific place to come on to, I believe he was leaving it to Benteen's discretion to come up to the battle and to the sound of the guns and pitch in at his discretion at that time of the Martini note. I believe there were probably other messengers with more specific orders who may or may not have gotten through.
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Post by conz on Oct 16, 2008 10:11:57 GMT -6
My boss tells me to "Come On" and "Be Quick," and I'm GALLOPING straight to him!
Not stopping to water, not worried about stragglers dropping out, not guarding pack trains...
Seems pretty clear to me. But I'm just a former Cavalry officer...
Clair
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Post by BrokenSword on Oct 16, 2008 10:45:51 GMT -6
Help me out here guys, with the situation at the time Custer/Cooke sent the note.
When Custer sent the - whatever it was - note/order/invitation to a party, to Benteen, as far as he knew, Benteen was still on his oblique-left mission. Is that correct? If so, then the Martini note could be interpreted as, ‘We found them. They here, not there. End your scout immediately, and return to the main trail/column.’
Had Custer discovered (actually seen) the size of the village? Was he more excited than apprehensive or alarmed? It seems to me that Custer’s situational awareness at the time that Martini was sent back to Benteen is very important for us to nail down, in order to eliminate the hindsight factor from our ‘read’ of that damned note and its real meaning.
I further suspect that Custer was also thinking that the pack train was following the main column and not Benteen. It might not have been out of the question for Custer to think that Benteen might encounter the pack train or nearly cross its path on his way to the main trail. If we believe Knipe, then a separate messenger had already been sent to the pack train, but not Benteen, and was known or unknown by G.A. Custer, hense, “Tell the pack train to hurry it up too.” Almost as an after thought.
Much has been made of NA stories being filtered through interpreters. Words substituted and interpreted incorrectly, nuances lost or added - that sort of miscommunication. The note from Custer to Benteen was filtered through Cooke, so why not a problem there too? Cooke quickly scribbled a note and hastily sent it on its way, with no thought to proof reading. How many posts here have been 'modified' after posting and before re-reading?
I haven’t run into much information about Cooke in order to form an opinion of his likely competence level at his position within the regiment. Anyone have a good feel about him and his abilites?
M
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Post by BrokenSword on Oct 16, 2008 11:21:06 GMT -6
conz - "...Not stopping to water,..."
Would you be sure you had enough gas in the tank to get there?
M
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Post by bc on Oct 16, 2008 12:48:03 GMT -6
I think the "come on" was clearly a come to battle and not just come and set up a bivouac somewhere. Implicit in that is to be prepared for battle. If Benteen felt he needed water, rest & relaxation, and pick up stragglers before battle then I the descretition was there to do that. Even Custer got water and he stopped at MTC and other places for some time. There were probably countless cw battles that may have went the other way with "if onlys" such as if only Longstreet had moved faster at Gettysburg, etc.
I agree Clair that if my boss says come on, it probably means to come to him unless there are specific instructions otherwise. But come on may have had a different connotation back then as I discussed above.
However, if Martini had ridden with the same note from LSH 15 minutes before the end and told Benteen that Custer was surrounded by overwhelming odds and fiighting on foot, then the message would carry a different connotation.
Besides the written note, we had the statements and demeanor of the messenger, Martini, to consider. I believe he said they had the NAs on the run. Can't speak for Benteen, but that statement would make me want to get there even quicker to get in on the action before it was over. But then again, with Indians on the run, the chase can go on for miles and miles as Benteen well knows from his Kansas days, so it would behoove him to stop to water.
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Post by conz on Oct 16, 2008 13:04:25 GMT -6
conz - "...Not stopping to water,..." Would you be sure you had enough gas in the tank to get there? M I've been known to leave dry tanks behind...<g> Yeah...when you're told to hurry, you watch that gas gauge and pray you can get there on fumes... Clair
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Post by biggordie on Oct 16, 2008 13:24:58 GMT -6
Michael:
FWIW, I believe that Custer WAS aware of the size and extent of the village and hence roughly the number of inhabitants and the warriors available as opposition [although there were more warriors per capita than in a "normal" encampment]. I believe that he thought, at the time the message was sent, that Reno was holding his own in the valley, if not actually driving the enemy before him, and that the movement across MTC [not down MTC] was made in an attempt to head off what he perceived to be a fleeing mass of people, women and children, old men and warriors all mixed in.
Hence the inexact, but peremptory orders to Benteen. The situation was, as they say, in flux, and where Benteen went and what he did, in specifics, would naturally be left to his discretion - the important factors being that he come on fast and make sure that the packs were brought ahead as well.
I further believe that Custer knew that Benteen was back on the main trail, from the visible dust of his column and from the report brought by Boston Custer [whether or not Martin ran into him doesn't really matter] who had been seen by several witnesses passing Benteen's column on the trail. He, Custer, also would have been aware that the pack train was BEHIND Benteen - from Boston. It would be unbelievable, to me, that Boston would get a fresh horse from the remuda with the packs, pass Benteen on the trail, and not inform his big brother of same, especially if you are one of those who credits the "informal command structure" of the regiment.
Cooke had been around for a while, was an experienced officer and adjutant, had more than half a brain and was a Canadian to boot [in addition, not to kick]. There is not much likelihood that he filtered Custer's words, except perhaps to clean up the language a bit, since Canadians usually do as told and say "Yes, sir" every other phrase [when not apologizing to someone for some imagined slight].
As I said - FWIW
Gordie
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