tatanka
Full Member
Live for today like there was no tomorrow
Posts: 125
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Post by tatanka on Aug 5, 2008 13:24:31 GMT -6
Good points, Elisabeth. Is it possible Custer still thought the Indians would flee? He wouldn't want to hang about waiting for Benteen if he thought they would slip thru his fingers. As someone has already said, the situation changed from minute to minute. Knowing Custer I don't think he would worry too much if Reno didn't get the packs.
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Post by mcaryf on Aug 5, 2008 23:07:04 GMT -6
Hi Elisabeth Looking at your suggestion a few posts back, I do not think Martini could have been expected to find Benteen if Benteen had continued to head for the LBH by a SW route. Thus I do not think the note can be interpreted as telling Benteen to attack from the West - if Benteen was intended to do that (and I think he probably was) then that was in his original orders. Thus the note becomes a revision to the orders.
I tend to look at when the note was despatched in order to help consider its meaning. According to Martini's various accounts it was after Custer's column had already descended some distance towards MTC so it would have been about to swing into MTC and head for the village. Sending messengers back after this would have greater risk of them not getting through. Thus I see this as Custer's last good opportunity to communicate with Benteen before his column gets into a fight. I do not think that Custer knew for certain that Benteen was on the back trail but obviously that was a possibility, and, if he was, he would be near and probably behind the pack train. Thus the note is quite simply to tell Benteen that they have found the village and to tell him to come forward covering the train and join in the action. This is obviously how Benteen interpreted it and what he effectively did.
Regards
Mike
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Post by conz on Aug 6, 2008 6:46:02 GMT -6
Mike,
Do you think Custer knew the general locations of both Benteen and the train by the dust clouds they raised? He may have seen them from the Weir hill area, about the time he last signalled to Reno in the valley.
It appears to me that he was telling both groups to "hurry up here," as he could see them a few miles behind.
Clair
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Post by mcaryf on Aug 6, 2008 7:59:48 GMT -6
Hi Clair
I do not think Custer knew where Benteen was for the reason I gave in my last post. If he had seen Benteen or his dust then he would have sent a messenger immediately and not waited until he had ridden 500 yards or so further towards MTC.
I do not think that the De Rudio sighting could have been Custer as it took place some 30 or so minutes after Varnum had seen Custer's column in the same general vicinity. Custer was not a man to wait around doing nothing important for that length of time. I do not beleive the story White Man Runs Him told Curtis about Custer waiting on the bluffs until he saw Reno defeated.
My best guess as to whom De Rudio actually saw is that it was Martini and Boston Custer. The timing is right for it to have been them and like Cooke, Martini was riding a white horse and I guess at a great distance Boston Custer might have some similarity to his brother.
Regards
Mike
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Post by clw on Aug 6, 2008 8:11:53 GMT -6
I'm convinced he saw the dust, unless he was blind. Maybe even two clouds of dust -- one being the train and the other Benteen. He didn't know which was which of course.
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Post by conz on Aug 6, 2008 10:20:13 GMT -6
I do not think Custer knew where Benteen was for the reason I gave in my last post. If he had seen Benteen or his dust then he would have sent a messenger immediately and not waited until he had ridden 500 yards or so further towards MTC. Wouldn't Custer have had to wait until he rejoined his command to send the messenger? Was Martini with Custer on the bluff watching Reno? Perhaps that message was sent as soon as Custer caught up with his command going down whichever coulee... Couldn't this all work if the sighting between Varnum seeing the command and DeRudio seeing only Custer (the command long gone) was only 15 or so minutes apart? That would probably account for any distance made by the column, and perhaps a short halt to load weapons, tighten cinches, etc., some witnesses relate. Certainly possible. I'm still hung up, though, on how Custer could have missed looking around before going down the coulee to MTC and missing the dust of the columns behind him?... Clair
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Post by mcaryf on Aug 7, 2008 0:53:57 GMT -6
Hi clw
In my timeline at 1.30pm when Custer's column was near Sharpshooters, the head of the train was approaching The Morass and Benteen had already been at The Morass for about 20 minutes. We do not precisely know where The Morass was but there are some bluffs 200 feet higher than the floor of Reno Creek in the sightline between Sharpshooters and that vicinity. Thus if Custer could see dust at all it would be at the top of the various clouds where I guess they might have mingled. The pack train was spread out over a length of a mile or more with I guess several different apparent columns of dust. I am not an expert on dust (it rains too much here in the UK) so I do not know if Benteen's dust would have already dispersed (he had not moved for 20 minutes) but even if Custer could see some dust I doubt if he could have made a lot of sense out of it.
Hi Clair
Martini's various accounts describe riding with Custer down towards MTC and then being sent back. There is no suggestion of Custer having gone on a personal recce and then sending Martini. This idea seems to be a construction of later writers trying to square Custer's movements with the De Rudio sighting. Once you exclude De Rudio or accept that he saw Martini and Boston or some other duo then there is no evidence to support Custer doing more than having looked around from Sharshooters at about 1.30pm. I have outlined the doubtful nature of any Custer sighting of dust at 1.30pm in my reply to clw above.
I really like my current theory because it is not necessary to explain any major delay by Custer. Apart from a quite understandable pause to look from Sharpshooters, the highest spot in the vicinity, Custer would have travelled as fast as he could reasonably go to make his appearance at Ford B. This was only a little out of synchronisation with Reno who was starting to withdraw.
It would seem in any event that there were enough warriors to prevent Custer from being able to attack the camp successfully even though Reno had attracted up to 1,000 to the other end of the village by his appearance. There were just too many well armed warriors.
Regards
Mike
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Post by conz on Aug 7, 2008 13:44:59 GMT -6
So Mike, do you think that Custer did not, himself personally, halt anywhere along Reno's ridge while the command continued on?
Clair
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Post by mcaryf on Aug 7, 2008 16:28:55 GMT -6
Hi Clair
I think it is quite probable that Custer paused at Sharpshooters and took advantage of the highest point in the vicinity to look around. After that he rode with his column down towards MTC.
Regards
Mike
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Post by conz on Aug 8, 2008 7:30:18 GMT -6
Hmmm...from SSR, he probably couldn't see Reno in the valley, right? It's been a while since I've been there, but I think the bluffs would block seeing the valley floor itself from SSR, and Weir would block any visual of the village from there. It really isn't any good as a vantage point except to the south, and from there he could easily see the dust from the two columns down there, if not the body of the columns themselves.
You could be right, of course, but I'm not sure why I, as commanding officer looking for info, would go up SSR at all, since an experienced eye would know he couldn't see what he needed to from up there. If I were the leader, I would be at the edge of the bluffs down from Weir point...I'd NEED to know what Reno was doing.
It's not like it would take more than a couple minutes to ride over to the edge and signal to the men in the valley, eh?
Clair
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Post by runaheap on Aug 19, 2008 11:55:12 GMT -6
This message is the exact point where the "known" and "ughknown" start leading to conjecture. Here's how I see it. I beleive that it was Custer on the bluffs that Derudio mentions. He has already divided his command into two wings.He is moving north to find a location to attack the village (in support of Reno), he arrives uphill from MTC and reality finally grips him. Holy smokes! This village is a lot bigger than anticipated(he can see it now). His horse "Vic" is prancing about, no doubt feeling the rider's adrenaline). He yells to Cooke, "This is a Big Village, send a message to Benteen to come on and bring the packs". Then he yells again "Make sure he brings the packs". Agressiveness has marked this man's style since he strapped on his soldier suit! The hostiles have just finished routing Reno and have become aware of the large amount of Wasicus on the east side of LBH river and are circling back on the west side of the village and heading downstream, and in great numbers. Custer orders Yates to take his battalion and strike the center of the Village. He heads north with Keogh's battalio to engage this group (probably thinking Reno has routed them). When he gets to the point where he sees that these indians are not running but crossing LBH river to srike at him. He has the bugler sound "recall" for Yates. His five companys are spread out in front of an overwhelmig force and "destruction in detail" takes place! I have been fortunate to see the message at the West Point Museum. It still seems obtuse!
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Post by crzhrs on Aug 19, 2008 15:17:09 GMT -6
Again, Martini's testimony at the COI:
He saw Cooke/Custer talking (knew not what was discussed) then was told by Cooke to deliver a note to Benteen.
Nothing about Custer's horse prancing about, no yelling to Cooke. From all accounts the command appeared to be composed and waiting for instructions.
The village looked empty, only children visible. Apparently there was nothing overly exciting going on . . . according to Martini.
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Post by runaheap on Aug 22, 2008 6:50:17 GMT -6
My interpretation I guess. Is this the "We've caught them napping" moment? The selection of Martin/Martini to take this message is another mistake. His command of English is always suspect. More than likely that's why the note. For a long time I concentrated on the "Bring Packs" portion of this message as the most important (afterall, it has a PS and is mentioned twice) and of course Mcdougal is on Benteens rear and the ammo is gonna need protection in front of all these hostiles. More and more I find myself concentrating on the first part, "Come on, Big Village",Just maybe, GAC has had his first reality check and this village is bigger than even he could have imagined. Just a thought.
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Post by conz on Aug 22, 2008 6:55:54 GMT -6
Question being, though...did Custer really care how big the village was?
My attitude would be...the bigger the better! More targets, more glory...
If you want to make a knock-out blow to the Sioux hostiles, you want as many of them together as you can possibly get. And this village was exactly that...I doubt you could make one much bigger.
So Custer was the luckiest officer in the entire U.S. Army at that moment he realized he had just found the biggest village of the year out there...everyone in one place!
Clair
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Post by mcaryf on Aug 22, 2008 9:46:55 GMT -6
Hi Clair
I should probably have said near Sharpshooters rather than at Sharpshooters. The description from Varnum places his sighting of the column in that general vicinity.
The suggestion from the scouts and Martini is that Custer paused on some high ground near there - whether it was Sharpshooters itself or the ridge line nearer the bluffs there I could not say.
I do not think, wherever it was, that Custer could see decipherable dust from either Benteen or the packs.
I am not an expert on dust and do not know how long it would hang in the air. There was supposedly some wind that day and even if it was as light as say 3mph the dust from Benteen could have moved over a mile from where it was raised as he had been static for 20 minutes at the Morass at the time that Custer was near Sharpshooters.
If dust was hanging around that long then Custer's dust from heading down to MTC should still have been visible to Reno's command when they left the timber but nobody mentioned it.
regards
Mike
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