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Post by herosrest on Jun 20, 2023 12:12:36 GMT -6
You prefer a long about?
Everything which I know, have uncovered, inferred from participants, in my water, and deep now in pysche, is that custer's companies went up the bluff, down the little dip and into MTC west of Cedar Coulee.
Many great minds plumped and plump for Cedar but they are wrong. That is perfectly OK. I can then enjoy their work as historic fiction.
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Post by johnson1941 on Jun 20, 2023 12:59:15 GMT -6
Yep - the long about. Or at least some portion of it. Trust no one! SOME primary sources...besides martin saying 'they couldn't go over the bluffs because it was badlands.' And about 10 witnesses agreeing on Weir's Hill and moving down the coulee to the right. Oh and Cedar is to the WEST of SSR, and a branch is (now at least) further west of the saddle between it and Weir Hill.. "By this time the last of the companies had disappeared over the crest of the hill, and thus Custer's command had vanished from his view by disappearing over the crest of a hill and down its west flank" Yep - couldn't say it better...especially if that hill is at/near SS RIDGE. Add 'passing down the valley of a Reno Creek tributary just behind the high ridge running for some distance south of Reno peaks' - and they nailed it 2x! Attachments:
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Post by johnson1941 on Jun 22, 2023 4:01:00 GMT -6
Curley, re: a letter from Russell White Bear, to Fred Dustin, 1938... "When we reached the ridge the soldiers kept marching on the east side of Reno Hill and going down on the west side of the ridge -- down a ravine, running northward. At this point Custer and two other soldiers besides Bouyer and I rode over to a high point that overlooks the Little Big Horn valley to see what was going on -- we could see dust rising everywhere down the valley. Reno's men were riding toward the Indians -- Custer nor any of us dismounted. Custer made a brief survey of the situation and turned and rode to his command. He did not ask Bouyer or me about the country we rode following the creek (ravine? F. D.) as you know -- we were all the time going away from the valley. We finally came out at the Creek --Medicine Tail Creek -- and seeing we were a long ways away from the valley -- Custer -- turning left, rode down Medicine Tail.Yep. Except in 1908 & 1909 Curley says he went over Edgerly peaks w/Bouyer, so... AND who interpeted for Camp and Curley on site in Aug of 1909? Russell White Bear And also with Scott & Curley on site in 1919... Russell White Bear "Q. Where was Custer when you saw Reno come across? A. Over the divide to the right of the first entrenchment. Custer saw the camp from the highest point on the ridge to the right of the first intrenchment. He just saw Reno going down the valley but did not see him come back."
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Post by herosrest on Jun 30, 2023 3:10:44 GMT -6
I can only suggest that you get a hold of E.S. Curtis's account of events which covers things a s far as Greasy Grass Hill. Then there is the stuff by Hutchins and by Viola and of course Robert Utley who assisted E.S. Luce in sweeping parts of Nye-Cartrwright Ridge with World War II minesweepers. link. Metal detecting the battlefield is generally given to Rickey and Vaughn as innovators but the credit belongs with Luce and Utley. Good luck selling Cedar Coulee as a route for the five companies with it being a worthwhile debate and one which is long resolved.
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Post by johnson1941 on Jul 3, 2023 5:57:51 GMT -6
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Post by johnson1941 on Jul 3, 2023 11:14:41 GMT -6
So far it seems Viola and Hutchins are based on Curtis's work with the scouts. Have Viola's book on the way, since no luck finding Curtis interview details. Have to get some actual interview text, to see what/how/why, with Curtis, WMRH & HM & GA seem different then their other stories which jell with Cedar. Have no issues with Nye-Cartwright - depends what the troops did in/around MTC. Troop(s) going north/across isn't a stretch. I'd like to at least get them off the bluffs 1st! I could see Custers whole command sitting at Weir Point for 45-60 minutes watching Reno certainly affecting some timelines. Have to wonder who met Benteen if these guys where watching Reno's retreat with Custer, then being on Bouyer Bluff and shooting into the village. HM: "We met Benteen's command just south of where they afterward entrenched. We said to Benteen, "Do you hear that shooting back where we came from? They're fighting Custer there now." Attachments:
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Post by johnson1941 on Jul 4, 2023 7:51:12 GMT -6
"one which is long resolved."
Resolved by whom?? Where??
THATS just what Im looking for!
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Post by johnson1941 on Jul 15, 2023 5:04:01 GMT -6
Hey - did anyone else happen to read this? It about Martin's trip back up South coulee with his message...
"When I got upon the elevation I looked behind and saw Custer's command over on the flat and Indians over in the village riding toward the river and waving buffalo hides. The battalion appeared at this time to be falling back from the river. This is the last I saw of the 5 companies alive and it was only a hasty glance.
I kept on up the north and south coulee and soon met a mounted man whom I recognized as one of C troop, but whose name I did not know.
He inquired where the command was, and I told him down the coulee quite a distance and that he had better fall back to the pack train, as he would likely be cut off by the Indians before reaching the command, but he kept on. After this I met Boston Custer and went on to Benteen."
Wonder if that C trooper was Thompson, or Watson, or how about Finkle? ?? Whomever it was - they were following up Custer's trail.
C troopers in Cedar. Gray horses in Cedar. Martin and Custer and the command in Cedar. Yep - its resolved!
"Custer first halted on Weir's hill and took a look at village...Here he turned column to the right and went down {South} coulee to Dry Creek and turned to left and followed Dry Creek straight for village."
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Post by herosrest on Jul 19, 2023 12:29:21 GMT -6
By Martin's timing, Custer's command were on the flat by the time or before Martin saw Reno's fight in the valley. This is relevant to timing matters if you accept what Martin told us.
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Post by herosrest on Jul 19, 2023 12:37:01 GMT -6
A representation of Walter M. Camp's letter to Charles A. Woodruff concerning the investigation of the move by 7th Cavalry into Medicine Tail Coulee, on June 25th, 1876. Camp to Woodruff, April 22, 1910.Woodruff was Carabaos and Presidio. Presidio has been in the news recently and long ago linkI wonder how things turned out for Ella Wilson.
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Post by johnson1941 on Jul 19, 2023 15:30:24 GMT -6
Great read - thanks, HR!
Did Gray and/or Wagner address this?
I will be going on with Strategy of Defeat again.
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Post by herosrest on Jul 30, 2023 7:10:38 GMT -6
So far it seems Viola and Hutchins are based on Curtis's work with the scouts. Have Viola's book on the way, since no luck finding Curtis interview details. Have to get some actual interview text, to see what/how/why, with Curtis, WMRH & HM & GA seem different then their other stories which jell with Cedar. Have no issues with Nye-Cartwright - depends what the troops did in/around MTC. Troop(s) going north/across isn't a stretch. I'd like to at least get them off the bluffs 1st! I could see Custers whole command sitting at Weir Point for 45-60 minutes watching Reno certainly affecting some timelines. Have to wonder who met Benteen if these guys where watching Reno's retreat with Custer, then being on Bouyer Bluff and shooting into the village. HM: "We met Benteen's command just south of where they afterward entrenched. We said to Benteen, "Do you hear that shooting back where we came from? They're fighting Custer there now." In the days when I did image comparisons ala the 'Where Custer Fell' book,to get a better idea of what the imagery was showing, several times I was advised that the lenses in use at the time introduced all sorts of anomalies over distance such as foreshortening and god knows what else. I found that to be circumspect and off the money. A terrain feature I repeatedly noticed is ajdacent hillocks on the bluffs above (upriver) of MTC and a mile below Weir. That terrain is seen to the right of the horses head in the image, which I have studied before. There are several images and it seems that Curtis took shots throughout his investigation but the set is broken up or parcelled out to collectors. All opinion of the image gives the location as Bouyer's bluff and upriver of MTC. According to Curtis in TNAI, those scouts left Custer's command from Greasy Grass Hill. I have seen the text and have a copy somewhere long ago, the text and not the book, and can I dig it out..... sheesh. However, his comments on the map follow his research dissertation which only goes as far as movement North from GGH, the beginning of the retreat. He didn't take his published stuff any further in the revelation given by White Man Runs Him about Custer dallying on the heights before moving to MTC. My view is that the image is taken up on Greasy Grass Ridge, consistent with the 1919 Scott interview information. I was going to ask a trusted battlefield visitor to look into it this year but the relationship turned to mush. That view is from downriver of MTC looking upriver towards Weir Peak (left of the horse's head). From my @madman across the Water' days
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Post by herosrest on Jul 30, 2023 8:45:37 GMT -6
With the matter of Cedar Coulee as a route to MTC, the majority of comment by observers gives 'down a, or the, coulee' and that's it. I link an existing trail down the ridge into MTC link which offers the difficulty with text on this matter.
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Post by herosrest on Jul 30, 2023 9:04:53 GMT -6
It can be fun figuring out where on the bluffs, the views at five minutes into THIS video, are.
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Post by johnson1941 on Jul 30, 2023 13:19:56 GMT -6
Right. But you have several major witnesses who were there on site state and or explain exactly which coulee they went down... Which ridge it was behind/near. which hill, distances from other features, where they saw troops, etc. Sure numerous other mentions of 'coulee', ravine, draw etc are not as specific, but also are not in contrast to these specifics, and based on locations and actions, usually serve to enhance them.
Could they be wrong? Sure.
But I haven't seen it yet.
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