cj
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Post by cj on Jul 1, 2013 14:24:43 GMT -6
A trip to the battlefield this spring brought this question to mind. Looking at Cedar Coulee and comparing it to the coulee below Weir Point and roughly parallel to Cedar Coulee, I wondered why Custer did not go this route to Medicine Tail Coulee and Nye Cartwright ridge directly across from Weir Point rather than go down the rougher, longer Cedar Coulee that took him in a direction away from the battle and Indian Village; a route that is about a mile farther and another 10 to 20 minutes longer at a time he knew Reno was engaged. The contemporary maps are fairly bad personal sketches, which is understandable in that country of one hill, ridge, ravine or coulee after another. Yet none of the maps before 1909 show Custer’s route veering from the bluffs down Cedar Coulee to Medicine Tail Coulee. My research uncovered that the Cedar Coulee route for Custer was presented by Walter Camp after a battlefield tour with Kanipe, Curley, and Thompson in 1909. He had invited Martin, the bugler/messenger, but Martin was unavailable due to illness. It surprised me that Camp’s announcement that Custer went down Cedar Coulee is based on Kanipe, who was sent back to Benteen before the column went down to Medicine Tail Coulee, Curley who stayed with Boyer on Weir Point, watching Reno’s defeat, and later joining Custer in Medicine Tail Coulee by his own route, and Thompson, who turned back and did not go down any coulee. The most reliable source would have been Martin, but his contribution to Camp’s information was in the form of interviews and letter exchanges. Camp tried to reconcile Martin’s descriptions with the Cedar Coulee route but positively describing in words the actual route of Custer down a coulee in country full of coulees after 33 years would have been too much to hope for. Mr. Camp has my deepest respect for the body of work he produced regarding the Little Bighorn, but there are many holes in this proposed route. My question: Is there any archaeological evidence, or evidence of any kind that would validate or strengthen the argument for or against Cedar Coulee as Custer’s route to Medicine Tail Coulee? Are there experts who favor another route and on what do they base their disagreement with Camp?
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 2, 2013 4:41:19 GMT -6
Hello Cj and welcome, before we start our conversation let me say that I have never been to the LBH site so most of what I suggest has come from a map.
Now I have had a look at the Coulee you mentioned earlier, if it’s the one I think it is (I can see two Coulees that extend from Weir to MTC) it runs north or maybe a little north east, then it enters MTC just up from a point called the lone tree (about 3000 yards), now you have looked at the Coulee yourself, and does this Coulee offer the same amount of cover that both Cedar and MTC provide?, the reason why I ask this is because GAC may have decided to keep his Battalion out of site for as long as he could, and the best route chosen for any purpose of concealment was the Cedar/MTC one, plus he may have wanted to skirt around the village with the bulk of his Battalion (three Companies) to avoid ambush.
You make a good point in the story concerning Camp and Martini, the other people named may not have been with the Battalion as it traversed to route suggested, but if you wait a while you will find a few more people who know the area well and can offer a more valid explanation than mine.
Ian.
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Post by fred on Jul 2, 2013 6:44:32 GMT -6
There are three coulees: Cedar (the most easterly); Middle Coulee, the one you are referring to; and West Coulee, closest to the river.
The reason Custer did not use Middle Coulee is that he never saw it. And he never saw it because he never went to Weir Point. Walter Camp had nothing to do with it. Camp made many assumptions-- a number of them incorrect-- but he was correct about Cedar Coulee.
If you pay very close attention to what participants said, you will understand what went on and where people were and where they moved to. It is the same thing with Reno in the valley: most people think he charged straight down, but if you read what was said, he neither charged, nor did he move "straight down."
When Custer moved up the bluffs toward Reno-Benteen Hill, his troops were seen at first, then disappeared from view, exactly as Martini described the route. From a military point of view, Custer would have seen clearly Sharpshooters' Ridge and would have keyed in on that landmark to guide his way. Once he came close to it, he would have seen it was too far inland to view the valley and what he wanted to see, so he veered left-- again, just as Martini claimed-- then viewed the valley action from the edge of the bluffs, as Martini related.
From there, he needed to move north and the obvious route at that point was Cedar Coulee, not Middle, because it could not be seen. Cedar turned out to be a difficult route and I am sure it took some time to negotiate it, his troops using both sides of its banks, as well as the depression itself. The fact it led away from the river was incidental and quickly corrected once Custer reached MTC.
Again, the key to this thing is what these guys had to say. There is very little needing to be discarded and most of that was claimed many years after the fact when memories had faded.
And "cj," welcome to these boards.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 2, 2013 9:30:06 GMT -6
What did I tell you Cj, it was only a matter of time before someone with more knowledge will come along and explain everything to you (I don’t know why I missed the obvious point about Custer not knowing about Middle Coulee, it must have been bandied about on these boards now a few times that GAC never went to Weir Point thus having no knowledge of any better Coulees).
Did you have a nice trip Fred.
Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Jul 2, 2013 9:50:04 GMT -6
Ian: I have just received a report from a reliable source that the entire State of Montana is in complete disarray. The National Guard has been activated. State Troopers have been on high alert for the past ten days, but recovery operations are now underway, now that that interloper from New York has returned to Pleasantville. It will take the state two years to recover then it starts all over again
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Post by fred on Jul 2, 2013 11:32:55 GMT -6
Ian and Chuck,
This was the best of my three trips out there with my friends. Not only did we go to the battlefield-- and a special tour over Greasy Grass Ridge and into Calhoun Coulee and Deep Ravine, all with Dr. Douglas Scott-- but we stayed a night at the Occidental Hotel in Buffalo, enjoyed the usual bluegrass jamboree they have there every Thursday evening; then spent two nights at a farm and had a marvelous bar-b-q with "Rosebud" and his lovely wife. "Rosebud" took us on a tour and we saw where Custer had his parade in front of Gibbon and Terry; we stood atop the bluffs where Bradley spotted the Rosebud village; saw Deer Medicine Rocks, driving up the Rosebud Valley.
From there we went to Ft Fetterman, Devil's Tower, Ft Laramie, and Ft Caspar, then back to the LBH where we photographed, measured, and finally pinpointed 3,411. We also spent a too-few brief minutes with Britt ("bc"), and a lot longer with some re-enactors, the highlight of which was finally meeting Gerry Schulz ("Gerry" on both boards). Met up with Steve Andrews ("AZ Ranger") and "Zekesgirl," two of my favorite people, plus met a new "Keogh," Lorne Langley, who really looked and fit the part in one of the re-enactments.
We had a hoot of a time with Mike Donohue (Drawing Battle Lines) and even managed to spend a few minutes with Jim Donovan (A Terrible Glory) and Father Vince Heier, Bob Snelson, and a few others.
Apparently, Participants got rave reviews at the CBHMA symposium... and Book II will soon be a reality.
All in all, a marvelous ten days spent with my five marvelous friends. Right, "Treasuredude"?
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by wild on Jul 2, 2013 13:20:15 GMT -6
The natural route was via Weir Point.It was a prominent point and on the route North.If Custer used Cedar Coulee he lost sight of the Indians and Reno's situation and wasted time .Both the suggested route and suggested observation point are inferior to themore obvious land features.
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cj
New Member
Posts: 2
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Post by cj on Jul 2, 2013 14:31:07 GMT -6
Fred,
Thanks for your welcome and explanation. I did not understand “participants”, “what these guys had to say”; Forum? Battle? Book?
It would be great if there was some evidence as has been discovered on other parts of the battlefield to give some indication that Cedar Coulee was the route. Custer was seen on the bluffs, and some say on a high point which only could have been Weir Point. At the head of Cedar Coulee, he was within a couple hundred yards of Weir Point and a better view of the Indian Village and Medicine Tail Coulee, Nye Cartwright Ridge and north beyond. It is hard to believe that, as he was trying to view the Indian Village and the unfolding battle across the way, that he did not afford himself of the best view available, and in the process get a good view of the easier, faster middle coulee as you named it. Custer was seen on the bluffs with his command. Where they disappeared from view, they could have either gone down Cedar Coulee or disappeared from view behind the peaks of Weir Point.
One of the reasons that I posted was because of what I read in your Battle Chronology under June 25: Down the Coulees: “The generally accepted route was down Cedar Coulee . . . though some disagree and present arguments for a different route.” I would like to know who disagrees and what their arguments are against it.
cj
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Post by quincannon on Jul 2, 2013 21:27:53 GMT -6
CJ: Custer was seen by those in the valley on a high point, and that point was in the vicinity of Bench Mark 3411, located on the border of the Reno/Benteen Site. Cedar Coulee was not only the first but the one that offers direct access to where Custer wanted to go, which was initially not Medicine Tail Coulee but rather the L-N-C Ridge Complex.
From a purely military point of view Weir Point is a horrible place to either initiate the launch an attack or conduct a reconnaissance from in that it is much to close from the point of launching your intended enterprise to the objective. Additionally, once there your options are exactly zero. From L-N-C you have several options, and several variations of those several. I don't think much of Custer as officer, commander, or man, but he was not stupid, and going to Weir Point was militarily stupid.
Custer made bad choices in what he did, but they were bad choices based upon inadequate information, poor situational awareness, and ingrained preconceptions. Today we look upon those things as stupidity, but we have an advantage Custer did not have. We have a much clearer picture of everything that transpired,. He had only what he saw.
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Post by wild on Jul 2, 2013 21:45:28 GMT -6
Benteen states that Weir Point was the only point from which the village could be seen.
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Post by wild on Jul 2, 2013 21:59:22 GMT -6
and going to Weir Point was militarily stupid.
How could Custer possibly make that judgement without going to Weir Point. The only reason Fred puts forward for using Cedar Coulee was that Custer did not know that there were other coulees further North. Weir,Benteen& co did not think twice of going to Weir Point. Martin speaks of a high point;Weir Point is the only prominent High point. Fred writes that it required measurements to locate 3411.
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Post by quincannon on Jul 2, 2013 22:00:38 GMT -6
Fred: Did you happen to take the side road off of the Interstate to the site of old Fort Reno?. On my trip to LBH I was tempted to go out to the site of Fort Fetterman and the Hog Ranch but I was pressed for time. Anything out there worth the trip?
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 3, 2013 3:34:31 GMT -6
Well Chuck your sources are correct, I also seen a bulletin on CBS News about a retired U.S. Army Officer/Financial Advisor and his crew of five tearing up the place, after ten days of mayhem Governor Bullock had run out of patience and when the police failed to contain this wild bunch they had no choice but to send for the National Guard, they also detained a man dressed in Cavalry gear for selling snake oil, but I didn’t catch his name.
Hello Fred, sounds like you had a great time out there, good to hear that you have nailed point 3411, I reckon it should be named after you or you should be the first to give it a name rather than just 3411.
I am glad Participants got the recognition it deserved, because what I have seen of your work so far, you can tell that you have put your heart and soul into it, so good luck with number II.
Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Jul 3, 2013 8:09:49 GMT -6
Wagner Knob, that has a certain ring to it. Sort of reminds me of Dogpatch and Grinder Switch. I can see it now Ian. Wagner Knob becomes to a Custerphile, what the Grotto of Lourdes has become to Christianity at large. Helena may find relics of the true buckskin there. Pilgrims will undoubtedly come to pay homage. An suitable venue can be constructed nearby and the Passion of the Custer can be performed every tenth year.
Think of it Ian. Wagner out there with only a few sturdy companions to provide comfort and security, with the entire Crow Nation around him, tape measure in hand verifying what the USGS did so long ago. This is the stuff of legend and myth. Tales will be told of it in bar room and brothel, at least until the second coming of Keogh, and perhaps longer. Fred's book will be the constant companion of the sheep dipped, much like Caesar's Commentaries. The horse holders of the mighty will crap their pants at the mere mention of the name Wagner
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 3, 2013 8:20:36 GMT -6
Hi Chuck; Wagner Knob Hmmm….. Well I don’t know if the word Knob has more than one meaning over in the states but it certainly does here, but I will keep it clean, maybe Knoll might fit the bill better than Knob so I will change it before Diane intervenes.
Ian.
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