Why Cedar Coulee?

[quincannon]

Ian: Don't know what it means in the UK. Here is it is a small rise in terrain, much like a knoll, and the term is used more in the south than the rest of the country. Knoll though fits as well so Wagner Knoll it shall be.

[Yan Taylor]

That does have a nice ring to it Chuck, ‘’Wagner’s Knoll’’, it would surly stand out on any new maps that are printed, and it sounds better then hill 3411.

Ian.

[quincannon]

Well Ian 3411 is not a hill. It happens to be on a hill, but it is nothing more than a measurement above sea level. So it is not nearly as romantic as Pork Chop or Old Baldy. Just a stake in the ground with a cheap metal plate attached in most instances.

[Yan Taylor]

I thought you were going to say ‘’Henman Hill’’ with it being Wimbledon fortnight, but yes I get your drift, still it is worth a stake or point on the map.

[fred]

You are very kind, Ian, but I prefer 3,411. Has a good ring to it.

We had fun scoping it out again. When you are on it, it does not seem that significant and we were not sure whether it was the first rise we encountered or the second (a little farther north). The problem with that, however, is the road goes from north to south, but Custer moved south to north. So we went all the rest of the way to Benteen Hill (south of Reno Hill), then moved along the route we figured Custer moved. All of a sudden, the prominence of 3,411 becomes apparent rendering the more-northern rise irrelevant. Also, from 3,411, Weir Point no longer appears as prominent as it does from other vantage points. Really strange stuff, but when you stand on 3,411 it is very apparent. Again, Weir Point is only two feet higher than 3,411. The highest spot along that route remains Sharpshooters' Ridge, but that is too far away to see what Custer wanted to see. Besides, anyone who thinks all these side trips mean anything clearly do not understand what is important to a military commander.

The strangeness of the terrain becomes even more apparent when you go into the Calhoun Coulee area. It is absolutely incredible! There were 50 or so, of us on this tour with Dr. Scott and you could see the amazement on everyone's face when they realized how different the terrain really is from what you can see along the road. It is no wonder Harrington got routed out of there and the Indians got so damn close to those troops on Battle Ridge.

Again, Ian, anyone who still believes Custer side-tripped to Weir Point really has no clue, hasn't read the various accounts, and is strictly operating in a fog of misunderstanding. Write them off.

Best wishes,
Fred.

[quincannon]

That's right. It is strawberries and cream time again. I will send the servants to Safeway immediately. Of course they are busy at the moment, washing the lace curtains.

One must be prepared for the big holiday here you know. We plan to have a gala day. It has become an annual event over the last four years. All the neighbors have a street Bar B-Q, and then retire to the nearest shelter to watch the Baptists who own the empty fire prone prairie property across the road endure a downpour on their fireworks display and scurry for their cars. It has happened three years in a row, in fact all three times they have tried it. Perhaps God is sending them a message they fail to heed, that being that one does not attempt to display fireworks on a tinderbox like prairie. We wait in great anticipation for this years message from the Almighty.

[Yan Taylor]

Fred; I remember when there was a discussion going on concerning GAC viewing the Village from Weir, but I thought you was right then and I agreed with you now.

Chuck, before I retire to dress for Dinner (Herb Chicken served with wild rice) I will phone Susan to stop on the way home from work and pick up a punnet of strawberry’s, I prefer mine with Vanilla Ice Cream.

We have a fireworks celebration on the 5th of November;
link


Point 3,411 it is then Fred.

Ian.

[quincannon]

Well Ian, it is good to be reminded that the Mother Country had their John Adams. I think both of them were closet pyromaniacs.

I am also pleased that the both of us observe the amenities in dressing for dinner. One must maintain the trappings of civilization out here on the frontier. None of that sitting around the camp fire in trail worn buckskin and homespun crap for me. I do keep my revolver handy just in case one of the servants gets a little mouthy. This reminds me of course to have the servants take care of that rotgut whiskey spot on my white dinner jacket.

[Yan Taylor]

It is good to know that you are upholding the rules of Etiquette Chuck; if my cutlery is not arranged properly then its WW3, my god we may as well eat with our fingers.

Fred; I was wondering about Weir point and its environs, would it be possible for Custer and his Battalion to traverse the area without being seen from the village? If not then the Custer Battalion would have been spotted by Crazy Horse before he left the village to join the Reno fight, and as a result Custer would have arrived a tad earlier and CH would have been able to prepare a welcoming committee just for George.

But I think that Custer actually left his Battalion in Cedar Coulee before he went to point 3411, so the decision to use the Cedar Coulee route had already been established before he left so any movement up and over Weir could have been ruled out as they past Sharpshooter Ridge.

Ian.

[Yan Taylor]

Chuck; what do you make of my organisation below, would it be any good for Cavalry in the field? I call the Christmas Tree Structure;

1 x Colonel
2 x Majors
4 x Captains
12 x 1st Lieutenants
12 x 2nd Lieutenants

That would give you a RHQ (Commanded by the Colonel)
Two Wings (Each Commanded by a Major)
Four Squadrons (Each Commanded by a Captain)
Twelve Troops (Each Commanded by a 1st & 2nd Lieutenant)

Any extra Officers like Adjutants and such would be a bonus.

Ian.

[quincannon]

Ian: What is the anticipated strength? Need to know that before I can comment further.

I will tell you though I favor all things in threes. Flexibility with three or even four is greatly enhanced over two. We are currently proving that once again with the current organization of our brigade combat teams only having two battalions. I have known about a pending change in our current structure for some time now, but it was announced in our local paper that one of the brigades of the 4th Infantry Division will be inactivated next year. After the change the three remaining brigades will each have 3 maneuver battalions and a cavalry squadron. What looks good on paper and force generation projections does not always work out so well on the battlefield. What we found is that the cavalry squadron was utilized as another maneuver battalion, and could not concentrate on its primary mission.

Let me look at some more detail from you, but I wanted you to know going in that I really am a fan of three or more. I think the optimum with modern communications is five

Also if you are talking about a troop being an American company sized unit I would be completely against them being commanded by a lieutenant by design. Some could handle it, but you don't design for the some, you design for the majority, and the majority of lieutenants are not yet mature enough in their military skills I think. If it is a Brit version of a troop, that being an American platoon, then OK.

[benteen]

[quote author="quincannon" source="/post/90379/thread" timestamp="1372882015. We are currently proving that once again with the current organization of our brigade combat teams only having two battalions. I have known about a pending change in our current structure for some time now, but it was announced in our local paper that one of the brigades of the 4th Infantry Division will be inactivated next year.
[/quote]

Chuck,

Its worse than that. As a result of the budget control act of 2011 the US Army is going to inactivate the following Brigade Combat teams,

3BCT....1st Armored Div
4 BCT.....82nd Airborne
4 BCT... 101st Airborne Div
3 BCT...4th Inf Div, Fort Carson, Colo
3 BCT.....10th Mountain Div
4 BCT...1st Cav Div
3 BCT...1st Inf Div Fort Knox, KY
4 BCT...1st Inf Div Fort Riley, Kan
2BCT....#rd Inf Div
4th Stryker Brigade Combat Team 2nd Inf Div

Be Well
Dan

[quincannon]

Before everyone gets into a more is better tizzy. No combat power is to be lost. None at all. Each remaining brigade combat team will receive an additional battalion. So there are twenty one maneuver battalions in the brigades that Dan lists. There will be a total requirement under the new structure of thirty combat battalion addition. So instead of cutting twenty one battalions we will be activating an additional nine.

So what do you want combat power or the ash and trash overhead that these ten brigades currently have to have?

The total loss for Fort Carson will be 170 spaces, which is the equivalent of a brigade headquarters and headquarters company. The rest will be plowed back into existing combat organizations making them stronger, more flexible, and more efficient, but most of all more combat worthy. Your paying for it folks. What do you want a bunch of small yapping dogs, or one hefty sucker with a lot more bite?

So tell me please what is worse that that? Dan? Anyone?

I hear this same stuff from my navy friends, whose greatest wish is to refight Jutland and Midway. The world is changing people. One Burke has the combat power of a complete task force of fifty years ago. One three brigade division has the more combat power than Patton's Third Army at the height of its power ever dreamed of. More is not better. Better is better.

So to make this real simple, each of our divisions will have three brigades, each with three maneuver battalions for a total of nine per division, rather than four brigades with two maneuver battalions apiece, for a total of eight.

[Treasuredude]

Jul 2, 2013 11:32:55 GMT -6 fred said:

Ian and Chuck,

This was the best of my three trips out there with my friends. Not only did we go to the battlefield-- and a special tour over Greasy Grass Ridge and into Calhoun Coulee and Deep Ravine, all with Dr. Douglas Scott-- but we stayed a night at the Occidental Hotel in Buffalo, enjoyed the usual bluegrass jamboree they have there every Thursday evening; then spent two nights at a farm and had a marvelous bar-b-q with "Rosebud" and his lovely wife. "Rosebud" took us on a tour and we saw where Custer had his parade in front of Gibbon and Terry; we stood atop the bluffs where Bradley spotted the Rosebud village; saw Deer Medicine Rocks, driving up the Rosebud Valley.

From there we went to Ft Fetterman, Devil's Tower, Ft Laramie, and Ft Caspar, then back to the LBH where we photographed, measured, and finally pinpointed 3,411. We also spent a too-few brief minutes with Britt ("bc"), and a lot longer with some re-enactors, the highlight of which was finally meeting Gerry Schulz ("Gerry" on both boards). Met up with Steve Andrews ("AZ Ranger") and "Zekesgirl," two of my favorite people, plus met a new "Keogh," Lorne Langley, who really looked and fit the part in one of the re-enactments.

We had a hoot of a time with Mike Donohue (Drawing Battle Lines) and even managed to spend a few minutes with Jim Donovan (A Terrible Glory) and Father Vince Heier, Bob Snelson, and a few others.

Apparently, Participants got rave reviews at the CBHMA symposium... and Book II will soon be a reality.

All in all, a marvelous ten days spent with my five marvelous friends. Right, "Treasuredude"?

Best wishes,
Fred.

Absolutely Fred. Fantastic trip. I have some incriminating photos of Fred but I am forced to keep them to myself as he has some incriminating photos of me. It was great meeting Terry, Steve, and Gerry for the first time. I am currently working on getting the Montana Mayhem IV page up and running. I will post a link here when it's done.

[bc]

Jul 3, 2013 9:43:35 GMT -6 fred said:

You are very kind, Ian, but I prefer 3,411. Has a good ring to it.

We had fun scoping it out again. When you are on it, it does not seem that significant and we were not sure whether it was the first rise we encountered or the second (a little farther north). The problem with that, however, is the road goes from north to south, but Custer moved south to north. So we went all the rest of the way to Benteen Hill (south of Reno Hill), then moved along the route we figured Custer moved. All of a sudden, the prominence of 3,411 becomes apparent rendering the more-northern rise irrelevant. Also, from 3,411, Weir Point no longer appears as prominent as it does from other vantage points. Really strange stuff, but when you stand on 3,411 it is very apparent. Again, Weir Point is only two feet higher than 3,411. The highest spot along that route remains Sharpshooters' Ridge, but that is too far away to see what Custer wanted to see. Besides, anyone who thinks all these side trips mean anything clearly do not understand what is important to a military commander.

The strangeness of the terrain becomes even more apparent when you go into the Calhoun Coulee area. It is absolutely incredible! There were 50 or so, of us on this tour with Dr. Scott and you could see the amazement on everyone's face when they realized how different the terrain really is from what you can see along the road. It is no wonder Harrington got routed out of there and the Indians got so damn close to those troops on Battle Ridge.

Again, Ian, anyone who still believes Custer side-tripped to Weir Point really has no clue, hasn't read the various accounts, and is strictly operating in a fog of misunderstanding. Write them off.

Best wishes,
Fred.

Hello Fred. It was good to see you and Scott and others at Put's last week. It was a surprise to see you as I thought you were already gone. I barely got there before the horse ride started or else I would have brought your book for you to sign. We left Old Faithful at Jellystone at 7:45 pm Tuesday and got into Sheridan by 2 am.

I found the horse ride very informative. We rode across ford B, then along Bouyer's Bluff and on to Weir Pt where we dropped down to the road. Then went over to the base of 3411 and up on top of Sharpshooter. Then north until past the Weir area knolls and sugarloaf where we cut across Cedar, Middle, and Western Coulees into MTC. Then rode up Deep Coulee to directly east of Calhoun Hill and the Keogh sector before recrossing ford B to the Realbird's place.

I've concluded that no sane person who has been on top of SSR would then take troops down to the bottom of South MTC and follow it to MTC. No way.

Gerry and I identified the knoll south of Benteen Hill where Custer and Martini first saw the village which is where some of Reno's troops saw Custer's troops while Reno was forming up his line and leaving ford A. We also verified the 3411 spot which is right where Fred told me it was 4 years ago when we were there at the roadside pulloff. Due to the poor angles that are presented when looking at topos and google earth, I later put it over on the edge of the bluffs where the barbed wire & fence post junction is. 3411 actually extends south much further than the maps indicate but when you are there you can see why you have such a good view of the Reno timber fight area and a little further north without the necessity of riding over to the edge of the bluffs.

At the point where we were crossing lower Cedar Coulee past the Weir Pt knolls, you can see the village area on the other side of ford B. If you ride on into MTC then you can no longer see it as there is hardly no slope to MTC in that area and the ford is covered by the high ground and rough areas in MTC as well as the left dogleg on east. That means either Custer went straight across MTC towards East/Luce/Blummer or he cut left right there. It is a long ways to get over to the other side of MTC. I noticed immediately that cutting west in Cedar before MTC is a flat area that goes into Middle Coulee and on over. I mentioned my observation to Dale Kosman and he stated he already believed Custer made that turn into lower Middle Coulee. Of course, Western Coulee is just beyond that with ford B in full sight. I should mention that this turning point is only about one or two hundred yards above the floor proper of MTC.

On another note, we stayed at the Occidental on Sunday night at the Teddy Roosevelt suite where he stayed in 1911. I did have an encounter with the ghosts which I will provide more detail on later.

bc