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Post by AZ Ranger on Nov 24, 2015 5:44:01 GMT -6
View of Cedar Coulee and riding down Cedar Coulee.
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Post by magpie on Nov 24, 2015 12:32:42 GMT -6
View of Cedar Coulee and riding down Cedar Coulee. Thanks for the link and the photo's. Kind of looks like the cedars were burned out in that big prairie fire that lead to the metal detector inventory of the battle field and who knows what was there in 1876. Trying to digest Quincannon's view of foolishness of Weir as an approach. Any delay and you drive a nail in Reno's coffin. Fred saying it is written but I remembering Reno's inspection of Custer's shod horse trail soon after retreating to the hill (ie it was visible) and Weir's intensity to follow Custer where ever he went and Sgt. Windroph's statement a half blind man could follow the trail of shod horses. These taking you down the classic path and not Cedar Coulee. Thompson's desire to follow on foot or attempt the village on foot is another. If Custer swung out, why would Thompson not swing out. It seem's "It was written" is weak. I'm sure Fred will jump in and hit me over the head with it. I will try to take the heat. It would take day's of looking from and following all the possibles on the back of a horse to find the best and there's nothing to say Custer in minutes would be able to choose the best or find 3411. Majority of students and especially Fred are into going down Cedar. I wonder just how much of all these models have to do with already knowing where the village and Indians were. If you approach down a tunnel you can't see an ambush. I know Fred is a big proponent of dust and I would think that they would know where you were regardless after you gave your force size and position away on 3411.
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Post by herosrest on Nov 25, 2015 0:43:52 GMT -6
DucemusThere's a picture of the Gordon stockade in 'The Blackhills Trails', page 41, which first (?) published Peter Thompson, page 132. You can read it here - archive.org/stream/blackhillstrails00brow#page/132/mode/2up/search/thompson At page 155, (controversy ahead) an eye witness (participant) to Custer's march, states (stated) as follows: " By this time the last of the companies had disappeared over the crest of the hill, and thus Custer's command had vanished from his view by disappearing over the crest of a hill and down its west flank as Curley stated in the letter from Russell White Bear to Fred Dustin, in 1938. Curley was then of course buried at the National Cemetary. RWB could obviously write English, speak Crow and was a well regarded interpreter. He therefore was able to convey Curley as few, if any had before. Cedar Coulee is east of the hill, or east of the ridge actually. There is only one way to disappeared 'over' the crest of the hill! There is an interesting record of the 1874 'Boys' expedition to Little Bighorn valley from page 557. George Herendeen was a member of this motley Crew. youtu.be/Qa2lyG47jSs Theme tune for the latest Custer film - shot on my iphone
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Post by tubman13 on Nov 25, 2015 15:10:00 GMT -6
Your phone, should be shot!
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Post by herosrest on Nov 25, 2015 17:14:43 GMT -6
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Post by AZ Ranger on Nov 26, 2015 8:47:20 GMT -6
Depends upon the crest. If you start down Cedar Coulee and drop down the Coulee that would be one way. If you start down Cedar Coulee and move to the left below Weir that would be another way. That route follows the drainage that todays road follows. The roads were built following the terrain. Riders follow the terrain also unless given an order such as Benteen received.
Regards
Benteeneast
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Post by johnson1941 on Jun 15, 2023 12:19:23 GMT -6
"3411" does have a nice ring to it - but so does "Weir Hill" - which is how Herendeen @ the RCOI and later Camp (correctly) identified the location where Custer saw the village, waved, and then moved column right - down South Coulee.
Martin used "Weir Hill" too, and agreed to “South” Coulee, maybe because Camp used them when discussing it.
WMC w/Martin "Custer first halted on Weir's hill and took a look at village (from this point he could see only about 1/3 of it - Hunk and Blackfoot villages - W.M. C.) Here he turned column to the right and went down {South} coulee to Dry Creek and turned to left and followed Dry Creek straight for village"
"Inq. John Martin. Did Custer follow the bottom South Coulee all the way and make turn into Medicine Tail or cut across the hill and save some of the distance. He Dog seemed to think Custer cut across the hill. No Custer followed coulee all the way."
Martin agreed with going down South Coulee, but later on interview he mentions on way back (per Cooke - he's following Custer's trail in some fashion) about meeting Boston '1/2 between MEDIUM Coulee and Weir Hill'.
Martin:
“Cooke wrote out the message to Benteen and I started back with it on the trail. I did not follow Dry Creek all way back to coulee running north and south but cut across the high ground.” … “Met Boston Custer half way between medium coulee and Weir Hill. Boston asked me where Custer was and if he had been attacked…”
So going back - going 'over the high ground' - Martin turns up Medium coulee, instead of the coulee he went down - which was South. Hmm.. Which - by the way - if your Camp, you placed Martin being sent back 6184 ft from the river - which just happens to be the entrance to medium coulee, which is 3431 ft below the bend into Cedar.
Herendeen, 1879 Q) What is the character of the country towards “B”? A) I claim that what is called Weir’s Hill is the highest point on the ridge in that vicinity.
Q) That circular mark is to indicate the position Major Reno took. How far from there can you see the country towards “B”? A) To that highest point, Weir’s Hill, probably half a mile down.
SO - instead of "3411" - which isn't really a feature but an elevation bm from 80 years later - we should use Weir Hill....we could also use "7" as this how DeRudio identified it, or "G", as Benteen did.
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Post by johnson1941 on Jun 16, 2023 13:56:42 GMT -6
And as for Weir POINT being this mammoth feature that just everybody had to use... (well seems the scouts and Bouyer did, as they ‘followed along the bluffs after Custer took to the right and went down a coulee in a northern direction’, and Weir et. al. of course, as edgerly moved down on the right - ‘on Custer’s trail, or parallel to it’) Weir HILL, adjacent to Sharpshooter's and '3411', is also possibly referred to by Goldin as a "high Pinnacle" maybe because as Camp measured it at only +/-65' lower then Weir/Edgerly/Reno Peaks, but it has a 3500' elevation mark (as does SSR) in 1891. Plus its a SHARP rise right up against the bluffs, which as DeRudio and Martin stated are right against the river at that point. Wilson seems to show it pretty well... And in the photo of SSR, imagine the left having a peak about as high as the right. With a saddle instead of a road in between. Hmm... Attachments:
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Post by herosrest on Jun 17, 2023 2:38:27 GMT -6
I am rather fond of Wilson's map view which shows the 'funnel' below Weir, between the ridges nearest the river, down into Medicine Tail.
Despite the areas of higher elevation it is only at the bluffs immediately above the river where the 'best' views of the valley 'under' the bluffs can be obtained. Even then, the mouth of Medicine Tail and much along the river is hidden or covered in somewhat dense timber. Detailed observation from the Weir terrain, looking downriver is considerably less than ideal and certainly does not offer views of the ford areas related to MTC.
You don't ride down hollows and roads are not built in them either, which is something that continually eludes infantrymen who do not ride. They don't get it! On this, I feel that AZR will support that view and give an expert's stamp - you ride the ridgeline. Camp felt Custer emerged about a mile from the river which for me is a short mile and as the topic opener, ten years ago gives, that isn't Cedar Coulee.
A lodgepole trail existed in MTC which in later years became part of a stagecoach route to Busby. That had to be checked out running east and scouted onto the river. It seems that strays and hunters from the village were on the terrain in this area and routing through it.
The terrain we relate to for Luce, higher and north of MTC had to be scouted and outposted. This is where evidence of 'First Contact' was found from fifty years afterwards - that is a can of worms until ballistics are checked and guess what? NPS refuse this. Once you are in contact on the Luce ridges then NC becomes a risk. After this, Calhoun dominates everything east and south of it within a thousand yards.
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Post by johnson1941 on Jun 17, 2023 6:55:29 GMT -6
ON EDIT: Camp with Curley on site...Sept 1908 (HR's "short mile"...) "Custer's command passed into the valley of a tributary of Reno's Creek and went down it...going in a direction directly north...coming out to the bed of Reno Creek about a mile from its mouth at Ford B" Cheers! Camp on Custer’s Trail, down MTC… Martin Sent: 6184’ to river Cedar Bend:+3431’ (which matches his 9600’ ford to cedar in another odometer reading note) AND the "10 arrow shots" or 3000 yards one of the hostiles mentions as to where they 1st saw Custer in MTC. See how all this gells? Attachments:
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Post by johnson1941 on Jun 17, 2023 7:09:30 GMT -6
I like this too from that good-looking Scout Goes Ahead...near Hodgson's marker is quite the view... "When they had arrived at about the point where Lieutenant Hodgson's headstone was placed later, the three Crow scouts saw the soldiers under Reno dismounting in front of the Dakota camp and thought that the enemy were "too many." Close to where Reno and Benteen later in the day were attacked by the Dakotas, on the ridge of hills above the river, the three Crow scouts were left behind and Custer's command went down the draw toward the lower ford on the run." Attachments:
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Post by herosrest on Jun 17, 2023 11:17:42 GMT -6
So, your view is that Martin used Cedar Coulee?
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Post by johnson1941 on Jun 17, 2023 14:42:57 GMT -6
Yep - for now at least! I don't recall that I have read/seen anything definitive (primary-source-wise) saying otherwise. Well - other than Gall/Godfrey stuff. I'd love to read some!
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Post by noggy on Jun 18, 2023 2:28:31 GMT -6
Yep - for now at least! I don't recall that I have read/seen anything definitive (primary-source-wise) saying otherwise. Well - other than Gall/Godfrey stuff. I'd love to read some! After reading Lakota Noon and Michno's analysis of Gall, I must say I reaaaally would recommend people to put on their skeptical cap when it comes to Gall. I see many just blindly accepting what he said, but if one looks closer at his statement(s), like Michno bothered to, there are some strange things there. Not calling him a straight up liar or anything like it, but neither do I just buy all of it. At all. All the best, Noggy
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Post by johnson1941 on Jun 18, 2023 6:22:06 GMT -6
HR's "short mile"...
Camp with Curley on site...Sept 1908 "Custer's command passed into the valley of a tributary of Reno's Creek and went down it...going in a direction directly north...coming out to the bed of Reno Creek about a mile from its mouth at Ford B"
Cheers!
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