|
Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 4, 2013 4:07:37 GMT -6
Chuck; if the Troops were at full strength (around 70 men) then I would advocate a Captain and two Lieutenants to each Troop, that would mean 12 x Captains and 24 x Lieutenants, looking at the Officers that were serving with the 7th in 1876 this would be feasible, at full the strength the 7th contained twelve Captains;
Capt. French Capt. McDougall Capt. Benteen Capt. Custer Capt. Weir Capt. Hale (K Coy - Detached) Capt. Sheridan (L Coy - Detached) Capt. M Keogh Capt. Ilsley (E Coy - Detached) Capt. Tourtellote (G Coy - Detached) Capt. Yates
They did have enough Lieutenants though, well enough to have two per Troop and two as Adjutants.
1st Lt. Porter 1st Lt. Bell (D Coy - On leave) 1st Lt. Jackson (G Coy - Detached) 1st Lt. Braden (L Coy - Sick) 1st Lt. Calhoun 1st Lt. DeRudio 1st Lt. McIntosh 1st Lt. Craycroft (B Coy - Detached) 1st Lt. Gibson 1st Lt. Godfrey 1st Lt. Mathey 1st Lt. Nowland (QM - Detached) 1st Lt. Cooke 1st Lt. Smith 2nd Lt. Harrington 2nd Lt. Sturgis 2nd Lt. Reily 2nd Lt. Crittenden 2nd Lt. Wallace 2nd Lt. Hodgson 2nd Lt. Varnum 2nd Lt. Hare 2nd Lt. Edgerly 2nd Lt. Larned (F Coy - Detached) 2nd Lt. Garlington (H Coy - Detached) 2nd Lt. Nave (I Coy - Sick) 2nd Lt. Eckerson (L Coy - Detached)
Britt; Looks like you had quite a ride and you have given a good description of the topography of the Custer route.
Dan I heard the news last night that he MOD are closing down the Ubique Army Barracks in Widnes, which is a shame because my Father served there as a reservist (Territorial) before WW2 began and I did a few months there as a Cadet.
Ian.
|
|
|
Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 4, 2013 4:14:18 GMT -6
Chuck; I have done a little sketch to resemble a Regimental attack plan for the 7th Cavalry; this is how I would have sent it as a whole straight up the valley. 1st Squadron Maj. Reno: A, D & H Companies 2nd Squadron Capt. Benteen: G, K & K Companies 3rd Squadron Capt. Keogh: B, C & I Companies 4th Squadron (Reserve) Capt. Yates: E, F & F Companies HQ Col. Custer Packs & Trooper Packers I have tried to keep things to how I would attack without the benefit of hindsight, I know that attacking such a large village with one shot Carbines and Revolvers (no Sabres) would be foolhardy but I think that Custer was expecting to attack with just these arms too so I will also. The main attack with three Squadrons up front would be to use the trees as a pivot and hit the place from the south (3rd Sqn), south east (1st Sqn) and east (2nd Sqn), the HQ would follow behind with the 2nd Squadron as a mobile Reserve, the Packs would remain to the rear but still be near enough to be able to supply any ammo. I know that some of you Ex-military guys will drop your jaws in horror at this plan, but I reckon that anything is better than sending one Squadron (Reno) up the valley, another larger Squadron (Custer) on a mission that would isolate him, and another Squadron (Benteen) off to the East and virtually out of the main attack. Ian. Attachments:
|
|
|
Post by mac on Jul 4, 2013 4:19:06 GMT -6
Fred's comment on the strangeness of the terrain and how you don't "see it" until you go down into it make me wonder if Custer could really know what he was getting himself into given his passage across the landscape. Probably a question for Fred but anyone got an opinion? Cheers
|
|
|
Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 4, 2013 4:45:35 GMT -6
Hi Mac, I suppose Custer relied on Bouyer for info on how the land lied, plus if the stories are true he also sent a Detail from F Troop forward probably to give him an extra pair of eye’s.
Ian.
|
|
|
Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 4, 2013 5:35:25 GMT -6
I have done a breakdown of all the Troop Officers (Captains and Lieutenants) in the 7th Cavalry and placed them into their respected Troops (I know Officers were missing and others attached to different Troops and assignments when the Regiment took to the field), the results are rather surprising that all Troops contained a Captain as Troop Commander, but some are lacking in Lieutenants and some are over staffed, there are a total of twelve 1st Lieutenants and thirteen 2nd Lieutenants so the amount is nearly correct, I just hope I have my figures right.
(I have omitted 1st Lt. Nowland (QM) and 1st Lt. Cook (Staff).
A Troop Capt. Moylan 2nd Lt. Varnum
B Troop Capt. McDougall 1st Lt. Craycroft 2nd Lt. Hodgson
C Troop Capt. Custer 2nd Lt. Harrington
D Troop Capt. Weir 1st Lt. Bell 2nd Lt. Edgerly
E Troop Capt. Ilsley 1st Lt. DeRudio 1st Lt. Smith 2nd Lt. Sturgis
F Troop Capt. Yates 2nd Lt. Reily 2nd Lt. Larned
G Troop Capt. Tourtellote 1st Lt. Jackson 1st Lt. McIntosh 2nd Lt. Wallace
H Troop Capt. Benteen 1st Lt. Gibson 2nd Lt. Garlington
I Troop Capt. M Keogh 1st Lt. Porter 2nd Lt. Nave
K Troop Capt. Hale 1st Lt. Godfrey 2nd Lt. Hare
L Troop Capt. Sheridan 1st Lt. Braden 1st Lt. Calhoun 2nd Lt. Crittenden 2nd Lt. Eckerson
M Troop Capt. French 1st Lt. Mathey
Treasuredude; I am a fan of Molly Hatchet too, wouldn't mind visiting the Gator Country one day.
Ian.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Jul 4, 2013 9:15:43 GMT -6
Ian: I misunderstood your question. I would still go with three battalions of four companies. Anything you divide into two parts completely limits options in that you have to go with one forward and one back, or two forward, with nothing left in the barrel for the unexpected. Our cavalry groups normally employed two squadrons in WWII and we quickly found out once again two is an inadequate number, and when the groups became regiments again starting in 1948 a third squadron was reconstituted. Three or more is a hard and fast rule in my book, that is why I think this wing thing used by the 7th, and presumably others from time to time was ill starred. "Two up one back and feed them a hot meal" is a term used in the U S Army meaning very conventional. Conventional or not it works, and works very well.
|
|
|
Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 4, 2013 9:27:24 GMT -6
Sorry Chuck, that’s what I was trying to get across, but if I divided the Regiment into three it would give this;
Three Battalions (Tri-angular formation) and each Battalion could be commanded by one of the Regiments three Majors;
Maj. Tilford Maj. Merrill Maj. M Reno
I was thinking along the lines of three Troops per Battalion/Squadron, probably because it may seem to unwieldy to employ four, but my friend if four could be handled just as easy as three then that is fine with me.
Then the whole shebang could be under the Command of these two Gents;
Col. Sturgis Regimental Commander Lt. Col Custer 2nd In/C
Ian.
|
|
|
Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 4, 2013 9:42:28 GMT -6
Yes the two group principle (Binary) was no good, as you say you have no flexibility.
I remember researching some WW2 stuff and I found that the standard Italian Infantry Platoon contain only two Rifle Squads, each Squad had to Sections, one was Rifle and the other LMG, I think it went like this;
Platoon HQ 1 x Officer + Orderly 1st Squad (LMG) 1 x Sergeant (Squad Leader) 2 x LMG Teams (four Men each) 2nd Squad (Rifle) 1 x Corporal (Squad Leader) 10 x Rifle Men
It was no wonder they fared so badly.
Ian,
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Jul 4, 2013 10:12:05 GMT -6
Ian: The rule of three is why I admire the USMC rifle squad so much. Three fire teams of four, commanded by a squad leader I think is much more flexible than the USA two fire teams per squad
With four companies per battalion in a three battalion organization. it would allow one squadron (two companies) to dismount, while the second squadron remained mounted in support. At battalion level it would provide balance, because these companies were so very small. Had they been full strength at say 100 per company. I would be very tempted to go with four battalions of three companies each.
The two key principles I used when in the force structure design business, was organize as you intend to fight., and that organization should always reflect the norm, and not the might be-might have been. I worked infantry, so I saw the history of change through the 20th century by research, and while the basic organization of squad through battalion varied from the norm several times, it always seemed to revert back to that norm, after periods of trial and error.
|
|
|
Post by benteen on Jul 4, 2013 12:37:19 GMT -6
Chuck; I have done a little sketch to resemble a Regimental attack plan for the 7th Cavalry; this is how I would have sent it as a whole straight up the valley. 1st Squadron Maj. Reno: A, D & H Companies 2nd Squadron Capt. Benteen: G, K & K Companies 3rd Squadron Capt. Keogh: B, C & I Companies 4th Squadron (Reserve) Capt. Yates: E, F & F Companies HQ Col. Custer Packs & Trooper Packers I have tried to keep things to how I would attack without the benefit of hindsight, I know that attacking such a large village with one shot Carbines and Revolvers (no Sabres) would be foolhardy but I think that Custer was expecting to attack with just these arms too so I will also. The main attack with three Squadrons up front would be to use the trees as a pivot and hit the place from the south (3rd Sqn), south east (1st Sqn) and east (2nd Sqn), the HQ would follow behind with the 2nd Squadron as a mobile Reserve, the Packs would remain to the rear but still be near enough to be able to supply any ammo. IIan. Ian, I agree with your thoughts on a coordinated attack but would you consider changing it from South, South East, and East to South, South West. and West. The reason being that if you are using the woods as the hinge, your East attack force and possibly your South East attack force would be impeded by the river . If you came from the West, South West you could use the river to your advantage in that it would give the warriors less room to maneuver with a river at their back. Sorry about the closing of the Army barracks, I guess it feels like a little piece of your life is gone. Be Well Dan
|
|
|
Post by wild on Jul 4, 2013 14:13:27 GMT -6
The above is way off thread and utterly fails to appreaciate the difference between a formation configured for shock and one configured for a fire fight.
Mac Custer's decision to advance along the right bank was an all or nothing gamble.Once committed to such a risky strategy there was no going back whatever the terrain.This right bank advance was a shot in the dark.He knew nothing of the terrain into which he had led his command. One would hope that if his strategy was undertaken blindly that at least tactically he attempted to make the best use of the terrain and use Weir Point to inform himself of what lay ahead.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Jul 4, 2013 16:19:38 GMT -6
Dan: I concur. As long as any attack formation uses the river and bluffs to refuse the right flank it is perfectly workable. I would still go with three battalions of four companies each to give more strength to each battalion, but if it is done right that may not matter, and four battalions gives you a couple more options for subsequent employment after first contact.
I do apologize, in that I though Ian was initially presenting a theoretical organization rather than a variation for this one particular battle.
Dan I noticed you tagged my response to you about the brigade inactivations. If you would like the complete breakdown of what is to happen, why it is to happen, and what the benefits of it happening are I would be glad to lay it out for you. I will tell you this though, all these actions pre-date the budget cut backs. I saw the first design sketches as far back as 2003 and the proposals on what should be retained and what cut loose as far back as 2004. The plus up post 2001 in numbers of brigades was a stop gap measure to facilitate unit rotation and nothing else. The Army recognized very early that these BCT's designed with only two maneuver battalions were bad designs. They had no choice however because the money was not there, nor was the equipment to field 47 BCT's with three battalions.
|
|
|
Post by benteen on Jul 4, 2013 16:50:28 GMT -6
Dan: I concur. As long as any attack formation uses the river and bluffs to refuse the right flank it is perfectly workable. I would still go with three battalions of four companies each to give more strength to each battalion, but if it is done right that may not matter, and four battalions gives you a couple more options for subsequent employment after first contact. I do apologize, in that I though Ian was initially presenting a theoretical organization rather than a variation for this one particular battle. Dan I noticed you tagged my response to you about the brigade inactivations. If you would like the complete breakdown of what is to happen, why it is to happen, and what the benefits of it happening are I would be glad to lay it out for you. I will tell you this though, all these actions pre-date the budget cut backs. I saw the first design sketches as far back as 2003 and the proposals on what should be retained and what cut loose as far back as 2004. The plus up post 2001 in numbers of brigades was a stop gap measure to facilitate unit rotation and nothing else. The Army recognized very early that these BCT's designed with only two maneuver battalions were bad designs. They had no choice however because the money was not there, nor was the equipment to field 47 BCT's with three battalions. Chuck, I honestly didn't know I tagged your post, I don't know how. Must have been an accident. If its a bad thing, I apologize. The E-Mail my friend sent me regarding the realignment was lengthy. After your response I went back and read the whole thing, and as much as I can understand you are saying pretty much the same thing as to the purpose and meaning of it. But thank you for the offer I appreciate it. Be Well Happy 4th to you and your family Dan
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Jul 4, 2013 17:30:55 GMT -6
Dan: I don't know what a tag means either, but it is one of those two rightmost buttons at the top of the page.
PS: We just had our normal holiday cook out which is sort of a block party. My neighbor two doors down was briefed on the pending inactivation of his brigade of the 4th ID. They already know exactly where they are going this far in advance, which battalions will change brigades, which will inactivate, and the plans to stand up the additional units to be activated. The 3rd Bde, 4th will inactivate. The 4th Brigade will remain and be the one to activate the new battalion, but it will be reflagged 3rd brigade, as 3rd Brigade has a more significant history than the relatively new 4th Bde. All this may sound like musical chairs but it tells me that the new 3rd brigade will either reform as light or Stryker.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Jul 4, 2013 21:16:35 GMT -6
Mac: The terrain from MTC to the present cemetery is like one of those old fashioned wash boards that your mother probably used to do the laundry. Consequently he went up onto battle ridge, not only because it was the closest high ground but because it was much easier to travel then the up and down the straight line route north would be. That same washboard when viewed from the ridge were the infiltration routes Fred spoke of earlier, and all of them led to within 50 or 60 meters of the ridge top.
|
|