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Post by coverup on Sept 3, 2021 16:12:27 GMT -6
How about listing the biggest mistakes or errors in judgement that resulted in the debacle at the LBH? Here are my two top ones: Custer sends Benteen off to his "scout" with no guides or medical personal. What was his intent? To keep Benteen out of any credit for Custer's victory or SOP to gather info? My top mistake is not notifying Benteen when there is an attack order given. Custer sends two messengers to Benteen telling him if he finds nothing to keep going. Yet at the most critical and crucial time of the operation he doesn't send any message to Benteen telling him Indians are on the run and a attack order has been issued. He had several options in notifying Benteen: The Indians are on the run, stay alert. Indians are on the run and we need your support ASAP. Don't worry I have everything in hand and all you need to do is mop up any fleeing Indians. Yet he does nothing to let Benteen know that a battle is about to began! What are you opinions on Custer's mistakes at the LBH?
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Post by coverup on Sept 3, 2021 16:18:49 GMT -6
Custer made a big mistake in Benteen and his spat. From the Far West there was a discussion about being left and Custer pointing out that Benteen shot a child. Washita thing carried over from Major Elliot. Either way the hate and poking the bear was always done by Benteen. Such as the letter to the press, saying ok Custer Horse whip me as I am the author and then on the day of the LBH taking the lead while not seeing to his troops. Custer gave the lead to whoever had their troops seen too. Benteen brags he turned around and said mine are good or to the effect and Custer gave him the lead. then Custer twice slowed down his pace before sending him to the left. Then Benteen never did make a real attempt to feel or go to the valley that Custer knew was there from the Crows nest. anyways I do believe that Benteen was fishing at the morass or being ass enough and that Weir also advanced ahead without permission there. That KNipe showed up as the entire unit moved ahead and that the packs got to the morass at about the same time. Benteen was not sure Custer's route but KNipe would have shown him. The fact that Reno fell back and made the tops about the time that Benteen showed up and that firing was heard down the valley at that time or shortly after. I dont think the packs were that far back and were within support of Reno and his wounded. Benteen could have advanced with his troopers. Custer should not have thought that Benteen hated him so much that Benteen would put a Major Elliot support to Custer and his men.
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Post by Bruce Robert on Sept 5, 2021 10:15:03 GMT -6
coverup,
You need to do some proper research as your claims are not supported. They are nothing more than the "Libby Lies' that never seem to die (though they should).
Read Michno, Fox, Wagner. Then think it thru.
Be cautious of the "mythologizing" process.
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Post by shan on Sept 10, 2021 4:07:28 GMT -6
Bruce,
Don't become despondent at having received no reply, its to be expected, after all, we all suffer to some degree from a need to cling to our own opinions. Naturally enough we like to think that we're right, and thus find it very difficult to admit that we're wrong. In some ways, the same might be said of those writers you suggest that coverup reads, for they too sometimes stumble, or even fall at the same hurdle.
Having said that, I'm not suggesting that their book are riddled with lies or biased opinions, no, far from it, all I'm saying is that we all need to question everything we read, and by the way, I'm not confining that observation to the subject in hand.
One last thing, as a long time observer, and sometime participant on these boards, I notice that there will be times when there's nothing left to say. For let's face it, there will be times when we all go round in circles saying the same old things and getting nowhere. It's part and parcel of the subject matter, for when it comes down to it, after God knows how many years, and millions, if not billions of words, no one has ever been able to resolve what happened, and in what order, to Custer's command after Martin left with that last message.
Shan
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Post by herosrest on Sept 10, 2021 4:26:45 GMT -6
Applying some rubber bands to the march of Capt. Benteen's three company battalion's advance along Reno Ck. to the watering which Benteen, never, ever mentioned, ever; other than during infamies begun at 10am on Saturday, February 1st, 1879 and swallowed as though the most succulent of freshly harvested trout, by the swashbuckling and truly buckled, Col. W.A. Graham as publisher of the considered 1951 review of the what's it which was what was whistled forth in tribunal, 75 years earlier. Graham learnt that Bates had found the note, you know. He learnt also that Bates had arranged for it to repose in trust with and at West Point. Yippee.... So, Q. Describe your route back and where you struck the trail? A. The route was the same as going over, bearing to the right. At the same angle going back, at a right oblique, I struck the trail about a mile ahead of the pack train. I saw it coming on the trail. I then followed the trail to a kind of morass. My horses had not been watered since about six or eight o'clock the evening before and I formed them around that morass and watered them. As I moved out from that place, two mules from the pack train rushed into the morass and were stuck in the mud. I then went on, I suppose about 7 miles, when I came to a burning tepee. I rode around it; I am not sure whether I dismounted or not; I know it contained the dead body of a warrior. A mile or so from that tepee, I met a Sergeant coming back with instructions to the commanding officer of the pack train to "Hurry up the packs'. I told him the pack train, I thought, was about 7 miles back and he could take the order back as I had nothing to do with that; that Captain McDougall was in charge of the pack train and would attend to the order. About a mile or so after that, I met Trumpeter Martin who brought a written order which I have....... Capt. Benteen watered his horses three miles from Ford A and by early 1879, had become so addled and frustratingly confused about what he did and what he thought he did, and others did too, that his testimony during Reno's Inquisition was and is treated as the Gospel of Fred, a 13th apostle. God bless. Link 1Blink 2Blink 3Was Benteen's canteen half full or, half empty? Crossing troubled watersThe Elliot Eulogy.
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Post by herosrest on Sept 10, 2021 5:26:02 GMT -6
What was difficult by being impossible or nearly so, impossible; during the 19th Century and the 50 years and more since 1876 - Today is so simple as to make falling off logs seem ridiculously difficult.
This is, plotting journeys onto maps and doing so with the clicks of a mouse. Travelling various distances between known or fixed points is entirely simple and the straightforward audit is reversal. Retrace the journey.
When this test is applied to F.W. Benteen's march to the left assessed againt time and distances then the oddities are blatant and unavoidable. Since it is understood and known beyond doubt that Benteen watered his horses three miles from Ford A where Maj. Reno crossed Little Bighorn river, where hhis battalion travelled prior to the water halt is embarrasingly obvious.
Let's recontruct in reverse to deconstruct. Incidentally, Benteen is usefully and obliquely supported by the testimonies and record of Lt. E.S. Godfrey.
The hard part is locating what is called the Morass or Hartung Oasis. Let's begin:.....
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Post by herosrest on Sept 10, 2021 6:37:21 GMT -6
Research - Analysis of late 19th Century command recollections from the field. Little Bighorn battlefield approach, 25th June 1876 - Reverse Engineering The Benteen battalion's march. It is given that the battalion watered three miles from Ford A, represented to terrain on the map above. Somewhere within the blue oval, the men of Benteen's command slaked their horse's thirsts. In testimony under oath, FWB stated............. zzzzzzt....... We can realise already, that FWB's recollections were somewhat wobbly in regards where and when he watered his command. & miles... OMG..... Hmmmmm........... Benteen was waffling and had he been afloat the pumps would have been full on keeping afloat.It will be helpful to bring in some distances data at this point, such as the Davis Ck. Divide to Ford A. Busby to Ford A and Garryowen, Distance from the mouth of the South Fork of Reno Ck. from Ford A and Hartung's Oasis. Distance from Hartung to Reno Hill, Ford B, and the Indian Village. Anyone care to pop them up? Hmmm........... no. Right Google's on the job and meanwhile lets consider what distances FWB felt his mission covered from the Last Officer's call where the decision to close urgently and attack the camp, was conveyed to the regiment's assembled Officer's. According to Benteen, there is the 7 miles which he obviously confused with obfuscation. Then, there is ' He (Custer) then said I had the advance. We moved then probably 8 miles and halted in a kind of valley surrounded by high hills. I suppose that place was selected so as to hide us from any Indians, were any in sight, or in that vicinity. Then the division into battalions was made. I received three companies and was sent to the left to a line of bluffs'. Lovely. 8 miles and 7 miles from the Officer's call - the last OC. 15 miles is a little over the distance from the divide to? guess where? It is around 5.5-6 miles from the Hartung Oasis area to Garryowen. Thus at 6-7 mph, Benteen's command were an hour behind Maj. Reno's battalion by distance when the Benteen Battalion were watering their horses, if Reno's command were on their skirmish line at the same time. Benteen is on record as stating his walking lead was a fast 5mph which has never been contradicted but he did at some point along the route to Reno Hill, speed up somewhat. Without any further serious considerations we can see from Capt. Benteen's testimony to the Reno Inquiry that little which has been gleaned from his information has ever been properly presented let alone considered by time & motion based studies of events. The mouth of South Fork Reno Creek, is a touch short of five miles from Ford A, and about 7 miles in the opposite direction to the divide with Dvis Ck. Benteen did Jumbly in spades with nobs on. Let's take a military view of this advance. What? You know, a very experienced battalion sized regiment, closing rapidly over a 15 miles valley corridor to contact with an enemy force that might number 1,500 and likely to run if possible. This was an enemy whose primary offensive tactic was ambush by cavalry charge.
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Post by herosrest on Sept 10, 2021 8:12:02 GMT -6
EeeYo! Move'em out, Mister!
So, what sort of delays occured during the Benteen battalions' advance on the Hartung Oasis?
That would be from the OC at the divide to the area of Hartung's oasis. Which distance is.............
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Post by herosrest on Sept 11, 2021 6:09:25 GMT -6
Tumbling dice were rolling stonesGraham's Biggest Mistake - W.A. Graham's rationalisation - The distance he travelled, and extent to which Benteen diverged from the regiment's trail can never be definitely determined except by the time the march consumed. Edgerly thought the battalion went about 2½ miles off the trail before turning to the right; Godfrey says it was five miles. Benteen himself said that the first line of bluffs was “four or five miles away.”
If we knew definitely where the regiment was when Benteen departed, the distance to the second line of bluffs might be ascertained. But we cannot be too categorical about it, for dispute goes on as to which branch of Reno Ck. the regiment followed. So also with the morass where the horses watered and packmules bogged down. Neither can its location be definitely spotted, though my good friend Dr. Kuhlman thinks otherwise.
It is generally accepted, that the lone tepee was located at the forks of the middle and nothern branches of Reno Creek, approximately three miles from the point where Reno crossed the river in attack.
The battalion had travelled at a trot much of the time since it left the column at 12:10. At the trot cavalry would cover from 6 to 8 miles an hour , depending on terrain. The halt at the morass probably consumed half an hour out of about four and a quarter hours, leaving three and three quarters hours of marching time. Averaging the march at seven miles per hour , and allowing for halts, it is fair to assume that Benteen had covered altogether some twenty-two miles by the time he joined Reno on the hill .
Benteen estimated the distance from the morass to the lone tepee as about seven miles, an over-estimate. Edgerly says three miles, which is believed more nearly correct. A mile further on, he was met by Sgt. Kanipe of “C” Company who carried a message to the Commander of the pack train ; another mile, and he was met by Trumpeter Martin with Custer's message to “Come on — be quick - bring packs. ” He was then, he says, about two miles from Reno's crossing, toward which he rode until turned to the right by the Indian scouts who pointed out Reno's hill position about a mile away.
These distance estimates add up to 8 miles, more or less, from the morass to Reno. Eight from 22 leaves 14, which I submit is reasonably close to the 15 mile estimate Benteen made of his Indian hunting excursion to the left; and assuming his and Godfrey's figures as reasonably accurate, ten of the fourteen may be accounted for by his left oblique to the bluffs and his right oblique back to the trail, which leaves four miles as the probable distance he rode along the base of the bluffs. If Benteen's distance estimates were even reasonably accurate, supported as they are by the over-all estimates of both Edgerly and Godfrey, the first of whom said they "made a circuit of about fourteen miles” and the latter, "wee travelled (far and wide) 12 to 15 miles before we again struck the trail, ”they indicate, as it seems to me, that those who maintain that Benteen was at no time beyond supporting distance from the rest of the regiment, should sit down with a piece of graph paper and a pencil and draw themselves a picture. If they will take the trouble to do this, they will discover that Benteen was beyond supporting distance considerably more than half the time from 12:10 to 4:20. After 4:20 there was a possible period of some 25 minutes when, had he known of Custer's whereabouts, he might, by galloping all the way, have reached the battlefield four and a half miles distant by 4:50. Had he done so, he would have arrived too late to help Custer, who with his men were now beyond all human aid.The essential problem with Graham's work, is that Benteen's battalion watered their horses about three miles from Ford A, and met Reno by 2:30pm.
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Post by herosrest on Sept 11, 2021 9:00:48 GMT -6
So, maybe Benteen watered horses twice..... Haha hehehe.... Hehehe..... Thirsty work, eh!
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Post by Yan Taylor on May 8, 2023 2:53:06 GMT -6
Didn't Martini say at the RCOI, that he met Benteen near the place that Custer watered his horses? By the eck, they were all watering, but it was hot.
Ian
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Post by herosrest on Jun 4, 2023 18:18:40 GMT -6
I wonder if Custer ever wondered why he was born?
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autie
New Member
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Post by autie on Aug 10, 2023 22:38:18 GMT -6
Cluster’s biggest mistake was expecting Benteen to come quick with the packs. Benteen was resentful and jealous of Custer, and Reno was an incompetent drunk.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Aug 11, 2023 0:22:34 GMT -6
Well Autie, if you stick around here long enough and take in previous posts, you will find that things like notes and petty resentment plus liquor, fail in comparison with a number of major mistakes made on 24th & 25th, things like night march, splitting the regiment, failing to issue a plan to all the battalion commanders etc.
Ian
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Post by noggy on Aug 11, 2023 9:17:05 GMT -6
Cluster’s biggest mistake was expecting Benteen to come quick with the packs. Thinking you can move packs quickly is a mistake, so there you go. N
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