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Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 11, 2012 4:13:17 GMT -6
Can everyone please calm down, I joined this thread because I thought it would be fun, I had never heard of rock drill before, so I have made a balls up concerning the rules, now concerning Hill 3411 am I to believe that Custer and a few of his staff and some Crow scouts are on this hill with the rest of the command down in Cedar Coulee, if so then from this point the chase begins.
I see that Reno has formed up skirmish lines, and he is now being engaged.
When I re-join the command, I send a courier to Benteen to help Reno out, then I proceed down what looks like a main highway to the Village (MTC), my scouts tell me it leads to a ford, and that ford would allow me access to the village, once reaching this ford, I decide to send one of my best Companies forward to see if it is possible to cross, they come under fire and suffer a few casualties, meanwhile me and the rest of my command reach the bottom of the Coulee and turn east of to some high ground to take stock of the situation, my leading Company now re-joins the main body, hostiles are seen massing around this ford, not so many at first but they are growing stronger and are using the terrain as cover, it is now that I must make a decision, I have sent for Benteen to go to Reno, so no re-enforcements are coming along my trail, what should I do next.
Do I move north and see if I can cross from another point (This would isolate me even further)
Do I stay put and fight it out (I would have to hope that Benteen and Reno would continue their attack and split the Indian forces)
Or do I move back south and meet up with Benteen and attack the village by leap frogging Reno and sweep northwards)
I would take the trek back to meet up with Benteen, it may be over four miles away and it could take me around 25 minutes but this would have a twofold effect, 1/ it helps out Reno and his hard pressed Battalion, 2/ it increase my strength to eight Companies when I meet Benteen.
Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Sept 11, 2012 5:47:55 GMT -6
Jag: This is not an exercise where history plays a part except to the start point. The start point is what it is. You must also be content with what happened before that start point. You may modify what you think is wrong by positive action. For instance in this scenario you start at 3411. One of the things you might decide to do is say. Hey this ain't such a good thing for me to do if I want to maintain surprise, back off and do what you suggest. There is nothing wrong with that at all. Nothing. What is wrong is refusing to ackowledge that 3411 is the starting place of the exercise. When you set up a rock drill you can start any place you want to. This one starts at 3411. It starts at 3411 for a reason Will shall explain to us in due time. I have an idea what he is trying to accomplish here, but I will let him reveal that.
So in essence a rock drill is an evaluation of a commander's decision making process. We already know basicly what happened as far as history goes. What we try to do here is examine alternate courses of action that may very well have changed history. What were the good things. What were the bad. To do that you must have a agreed upon fixed starting point for all the players.
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Post by quincannon on Sept 11, 2012 5:56:38 GMT -6
Ian: How much time does all this take? Do you have this much time? Does Reno have this much time?
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Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 11, 2012 6:23:13 GMT -6
Hi Chuck and a good morning to you, well it’s either this or three other options;
1/ form up and defend the high ground above the ford. 2/ move north. 3/ charge the village
The first option would need my two other Battalions (Reno and Benteen) to use their initiative and try to force the warriors to split their forces.
The second option would further isolate me, I could do what Custer did by leaving a force on the high ground to wait for the rest of my command, but I have ordered Benteen to join Reno so I cannot see him turning up anytime soon (I could of ordered Benteen to come directly to me and leave Reno to save his own Battalion but I thought that Benteen would be closer to the Reno position and he would arrive in the nick of time).
The third option is to attack the village, but with such a small force I would not have enough men to achieve this.
The only other option is to find another shorter rout to Reno, but the nature of the ground would hinder me, plus there is the thought of another river crossing to think about, until I have actually been to the battle field (which I have not) I feel that I am clutching at straws here, that’s me being honest, the maps I have do not give me enough knowledge of the ground to put down anything that would be relevant to the mission if I took a rout over the bluffs to get to Reno.
Ian.
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Post by benteen on Sept 11, 2012 6:40:04 GMT -6
Colonel.....I dont want to try yours or anyones patience, but I would rather ask one question than make a dozen foolish posts that confuse people as to the concept of this rock drill. I believe the following
Rock Drill....I am put in a position by the umpire (Colonel Montrose) it does not matter if I would have been in that position or not on my own, thats where I am and I cant change it. I am armed with the knowledge that in this case Custer, would have had or reasonably would have had at this time and in this position.Example. from 3411 he would not have known the size of the village, or a crossing point to it. he would have known that Renos attack had been stopped and he was now in a skirmish line. I now have to make my own decisions as what I would do now. I am under no obligation from here on to do what Custer did.
Is this correct.
This is a team effort. We are allowed to critque each others actions and decisions, in fact encouraged to do so, to come up with what may have been the best course of action to take.
Is this correct
Be Well Dan
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Post by quincannon on Sept 11, 2012 6:49:18 GMT -6
Ian: A good morning back at you. Do you remember the old tale, Aesop I think. of the Tortoise and the Hare. Slow and steady wins the race. Recall also Jackson's "foot cavalry" . They marched very fast but lost a sizeable percentage along the way who could not keep up. Longstreet on the other hand paced his march and when Longsteet got there, they all got there. Taking a long road to Reno does not mean it is not better. Speed, deliberate speed. is important, but it is not so important that you must force yourself to take an undesireable approach, which may cost you more time in the long run. I can tell you that decent from the bluffs is difficult for a man on foot. It would be much more difficult for a body of horsemen in an active tactical scenario. It is not the getting there. It is the getting there as a whole body, then fording the river (possibly under fire) and then deploying on the other side. There is a high probability of injury to man and mount, decending the bluffs at any place other than one of the primary fords. Even MTC Ford is a pain in the butt for any more than a few at a time In 1/ above ---above what ford? ??.
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Post by quincannon on Sept 11, 2012 7:01:29 GMT -6
Dan: You are right on target.
Montrose has placed us each at 3411. We are bound by what all went on before. We may change what went on before, but only by positive action on our part. Montrose painted a word picture of what we see at that moment in time. From that point on we are on our own. We can make any decision we please. We are subject to critique, for that is the whole purpose of the exercise.
That's what I am trying to get across. You must all have the same starting place, because it is that starting place where everyone is for a moment in time even, possessing the same knowledge that forms a basis for subsequent actions, but also forms a basis of that critique. Those are the things that bind us all together in this exercise. If we all start where we damned well please it becomes a goat screw and does not fullfill the intended purpose.
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jag
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Post by jag on Sept 11, 2012 7:08:48 GMT -6
Jag: This is not an exercise where history plays a part except to the start point. The start point is what it is. You must also be content with what happened before that start point. You may modify what you think is wrong by positive action. For instance in this scenario you start at 3411. One of the things you might decide to do is say. Hey this ain't such a good thing for me to do if I want to maintain surprise, back off and do what you suggest. There is nothing wrong with that at all. Nothing. What is wrong is refusing to ackowledge that 3411 is the starting place of the exercise. When you set up a rock drill you can start any place you want to. This one starts at 3411. It starts at 3411 for a reason Will shall explain to us in due time. I have an idea what he is trying to accomplish here, but I will let him reveal that. So in essence a rock drill is an evaluation of a commander's decision making process. We already know basicly what happened as far as history goes. What we try to do here is examine alternate courses of action that may very well have changed history. What were the good things. What were the bad. To do that you must have a agreed upon fixed starting point for all the players. It is or should be what the individual commander participating in this thing wants it to be, not what you dictate it to be. So take that freshly ground crap and stuff it where the sun don't shine. 2ndly here, I think you need to get a reality check and indeed go back right before I posted my first rock drill post and actually see what Will stated before I made that post.
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Post by quincannon on Sept 11, 2012 7:24:10 GMT -6
JAG: You can't be part of the solution if you remain part of the problem. I am not dictating anything. I am playing by the rules, the rules and conditions Will set out from the start. Those rules include the same fixed starting point for all. Read them again.
What is it you do not understand about "This is a 3411 Rock Drill - You are at 3411"? He goes on to say This is what you see from that vantage point. All this was in the original post that started this rock drill.
I personally don't give a rat's ass what you think it should be. You did not design the exercise. When you create a rock drill then you set the parameters. You did not set this one up. Will did. If you want to play obey the rules like all the rest, or don't play.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 11, 2012 7:32:06 GMT -6
Good morning to you also Jag, let’s start the day by being civil, it will cost us nothing, no one has been more slower to pick up on the rules of this rock drill than me, so why not start from hill 3411 and put your plans into motion.
Also good morning to you Dan, I bet if there was a medal given to who has made the most foolish posts regarding rock drill it would be me, but I don’t mind, the last award I won was for the egg and spoon race in 1968.
Sorry Chuck, I meant Ford B, I was trying to keep out terrain names ( like Jag said) because if I was in MTC and my scouts report said there was a fording point at the bottom of this coulee, well to my knowledge it’s just a ford.
I remember an old Wargaming book, and the author said that if (he was referring to the U.S. Army) your Company was ordered to a position then it will move accordingly, it may come under fire in the process but it will still try its hardest to get to the point it was ordered to go regardless of casualties.
So the point I am getting to is, that I would risk that 25+ minutes to turn tail and get to Reno via the approach I have just taken, going on the data I have concerning times, the time it took Reno to form skirmish, fall back to the timber and finally retreat to the bluffs took around 30 minutes, if so then I would be a tad late, I have it at 30 minutes from MTC to Ford A, so I would probably see his men running for their lives, and maybe see Benteen coming up behind me, but this is in hindsight, for all I know Reno could be still holding on, and both my command and Benteen’s Battalion could sweep up the valley bringing hell with us.
Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Sept 11, 2012 7:39:39 GMT -6
Ian: I think the viability of your course of action would depend upon just how much trouble you think Reno is in when you observe his skirmish line from 3411. If he seems to be doing OK and the hostiles are not building up very fast I might also be tempted to see what Ford B has to offer. On the other hand if I accesses Reno's position adversely I believe I would go straight away via Ford A, not the most direct route, but one I know, which allows me to get to Reno in a moderate amount of time. Even if I am a little late I can still support him retreating and my presence gives the hostiles another, and unexpected, problem to solve.
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jag
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Caption: IRAQI PHOTO'S -- (arrow to gun port) LOOK HERE -- SMILE -- WAIT FOR -- FLASH
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Post by jag on Sept 11, 2012 7:44:04 GMT -6
Good morning to you also Jag, let’s start the day by being civil, it will cost us nothing, no one has been more slower to pick up on the rules of this rock drill than me, so why not start from hill 3411 and put your plans into motion. Ian. When hell freezes over. You also do your homework, because I didn't have to conform to that rule, just as Will himself stated. You want to look it up, or have me do it for you. I'd bet the latter, as most of the time here we have motor mouths running while their brain only knows how to fart.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 11, 2012 7:59:39 GMT -6
Can anyone rid me of this Quarrelsome Jag.
Jag I was trying to be friendly and you treat me like a child, so be it, you can shove you opinions up your arse for all I care, I am trying to play the game here, all you ever do is sit on the fence waiting to jump on anyone who writes anything you don’t agree with, I don’t mind being told when I am wrong, decent people will explain to me where I am making mistakes and do it the right way, with decorum, but I won’t take any sledging off you, so F*** off.
Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Sept 11, 2012 8:00:36 GMT -6
Perhaps not 3411. What he stated in the post you cite was 3411 ior wherever you think the scouts first saw what was happenin in the valley. That does not change one bit what they saw. He goes on to basicly say do then whatever you want to do.
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Post by rosebud on Sept 11, 2012 8:14:48 GMT -6
Rock Drill has rules to follow. I have read many posts and declare Quincannon the victor. Under the rules set out by Montrose, it is clear that Quin has the best grasp and understanding of the battle.
But I want to make it clear that this battle they are Rock Drilling is NOT the LBH. It should not even be on this board.
If you note, Fred has avoided this conversation completely. With good reason if you ask me. You guys have great tactical knowledge but it has NOTHING to do with the LBH..
It is a ROCK DRILL nothing more...It is interesting none the less.
Justin
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