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Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 10, 2012 3:09:35 GMT -6
Chuck, I had picked and it was #2, but a #5 has come up.
William, #5 is a good idea; I would like to keep tabs on Reno, so that I could coordinate my attack across Ford B.
The other three options;
a) Send Benteen to valley, while you use your Bns to go north (multiple small forces better suited to even fight, or numerical superiority)
b) Combine with Benteen and bring regiment into valley to fighting the valley (Mass, unity of effort)
c) Take Benteen with you, and all go north
I would not consider going north at all, I can see this is a big village, and if I do see that Reno is having a hard time in the valley, then going further away from both him and Benteen would separate my command even further, also waiting for Benteen would take too much time, he would be better served joining Reno in the valley, so as before if I had to choose one it would be A.
Richard, you have a point over attacking the village with a full Regiment of twelve Companies, I did consider this in rock drill 1, but when I found that I had to adhere to the rules and have Benteen out on a scout plus Company B with the packs I reconsidered, Chuck also eluded to the fact that you could get bogged down employing this tactic and he has a point too, so in the end I wanted to take on the Indians and let them make the mistakes by attacking my command in the valley, in essence I want a battle similar to Bloody Ridge and not a mini Verdun.
Ian.
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Post by benteen on Sept 10, 2012 6:36:46 GMT -6
Gentlemen,
If I have it right, Rock drill 2 starts at hill 3411 and you have to decide what to do from there. Renos attack has failed and he is in a skirmish line and needs support. You try to give it to him by a flank attack at Ford B, but have been repulsed. Reno has retreated into the timber and is being mauled by an overwhelming force of warriors. What do you do now.
For me there is only one option. Direct support. Charge down from the East to the timber. He needs help and he needs it now. I have to save my command and those men. I dont care about Benteen or the packs just Reno. This is my reasoning.
1..I dont know the extent of Renos loses. He may be dead and a 2nd Lt or a Sgt may be in charge.I try to imagine the real life situation. Dust, confusion, men and animals being hit, warriors infiltrating etc, and the men may be begining to panic. I have to get to them fast.
2... What would happen to them if they saw me and felt relief is here and then saw me ride off to the South. That may be the straw and complete panic could set in and every man for himself, which would be a rout. A buffalo hunt for the warriors
3.. As to Benteen, he is not in my immediate plans, for the following reasons A... I dont know if Martini got through with my mesage B.. I dont know if Benteen is 2 miles or 20 miles away, so I dont know his ETA C.. He could be neck deep in warriors and cant help, but needs help himself D.. If I go to Ford A and he is not there what do I do, sit and wait for him while Reno gets slaughtered
4..As to the packs. they are not my concern. My only concern is Renos battalion, and getting to him as fast as I can. Capt MacDougall is in charge of the packs and a competent Officer. Capt Benteen (in my opinion the best officer on the field) is with him. When they get to Ford A, I expect them to evaluate the situation and know what to do. Meanwhile I am going to be with Reno
Be Well Dan
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Post by quincannon on Sept 10, 2012 8:18:09 GMT -6
Richard: My point was that a raid by definition is hit and run. This whatever it is must be hit and keep on hitting until the hitting is done.
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Post by quincannon on Sept 10, 2012 8:41:27 GMT -6
Dan: At the decision point at 3411 Reno has stopped and is on the skirmish line. I verified this with Fred and he so posted. If Reno has been pinned back in the timber, it was your own decision to move north to Ford B that allowed that to happen. Time and timing Dan. Once you lose time you may never retrieve it. If you felt you had to do something of an offensive nature before you went to Reno's aid as a matter of honor it was honor misplaced. You misread the situation I think. That misreading cost you time. The passage of time backed Reno further into a corner, and now you wish to compound the error by plunging down the bluff, crossing at a problematic place (tactically) and getting yourself pinned in the same patch of woods.
I see absolutely no difference between dying on Battle Ridge and dying in the timber, you're just as dead. The objective Dan is to facilitate the demise of the other fellow.
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jag
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Post by jag on Sept 10, 2012 8:56:49 GMT -6
As the commander comes into view of the valley and has recieved all reports from his scouts, he now can see that the valley wasn't harboring more warriors than those initially reported on the bluffs, damn, hoping it was true didn't make it true. But it did contain women pulling root plants for lunch, they now on a dead run for the village as he enters the valley and see's a just a few of those doing so. Those Indians in the early report were then heading for a point further upland and downstream from his intended destination and was the reason for the screen by Keogh's company. Scout6 will keep surveillance upon them and then hand off that responsibility on Keogh's company as it was ordered to then peel off and maintain the advance downstream and let Keogh's company deal with them.
A little further on the commander then orders E company off on a recon/screen mission down towards what appears to be one of the fording areas reported by Bouyer. It being a useless place to attack because of the high bluffs acting as a pinch point should they get beyond them and need extraction. He knows the Indians style of fighting and their penchant for skirting to their sides and rear. Should they occupy those high points and their rear, there would be no hope of recovery.
What the commander knows at this point has to be understood. Reno should be engaging the village reported by Girard, and the early reports by scout6 indicated that he was closing on that position as they left observation. There is no reason to expect timidity on the part of your immediate junior. The placement of the flankers should compromise any further need for stealth and as the terrain now is not conducive to further attempting it he takes the remaining companies and heads for the earlier reported Bouyer designated high point on down stream, a direct route to it as speed, gallop, would now become ever more the issue than stealth. Its only been about 20 minutes or so since leaving Reno, there is no need to waste further time and foolishness of effort and go gallivanting off to some mountain top to see what he's doing. The commander damn well knows what he's doing from those reports and has no further need to waste valuable time neither of them have the luxury of him doing.
The commander feels confident in his decisions, and he feels there is more villages downstream. As he tops the upper slopes of a long downward descending ridge he observes what appears to be a village and maybe a couple of outlying satellite villages that are difficult to determine if they are as big as the one he sees or they end there. He has to know where the end of all of those villages are so he can make an appropriate surprise attack upon it. He knows striking any village between Reno and that end camp circle would be sheer suicide from his experience at the Washita. The ghosts of Elliots20 ever haunting his memory.
At this point in time there is no supposition in need that anyone is in serious trouble, therefore no need to rescue or save anyone or anything. Things seem to be moving along quite well and according to the well accepted if not overused 3 prong attack he's now setting the Indians up for. But until he gets further downstream and sees where those villages end there is no need to send any messenger anywhere until he sees what he's up against, and so far he's unconvinced of the necessity to over-react to what he's so far observed. Before he took entry into the valley he looked around and see's Benteen's battalion closing upon the position where they pack train is headed for. This is exactly what he knew Benteen would do. But there still was no report from him as to what he observed. He can only conclude, nothing, as was the usual rendering of no messenger in lieu of same. Still their position (Benteen's and the pack train), at this time needs no change, they are right where the commander wants them and needs them to be, right smack dab in between the two attacking columns where they can support either one when needed. And, with a proper escort until such time as those escorts aren't needed, again in the proper position to aid either advance columns, or, attack on their own.
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Post by benteen on Sept 10, 2012 11:53:26 GMT -6
Dan: At the decision point at 3411 Reno has stopped and is on the skirmish line. I verified this with Fred and he so posted. If Reno has been pinned back in the timber, it was your own decision to move north to Ford B that allowed that to happen. Time and timing Dan. Once you lose time you may never retrieve it. If you felt you had to do something of an offensive nature before you went to Reno's aid as a matter of honor it was honor misplaced. You misread the situation I think. That misreading cost you time. The passage of time backed Reno further into a corner, and now you wish to compound the error by plunging down the bluff, crossing at a problematic place (tactically) and getting yourself pinned in the same patch of woods. I see absolutely no difference between dying on Battle Ridge and dying in the timber, you're just as dead. The objective Dan is to facilitate the demise of the other fellow. Colonel...I dont know if I would have gone to Ford B or not. Custer did.I accept that and perhaps would have done the same, not out of a matter of honor, but rather that a flank attack is a way to support Reno. Once I couldnt do it, then I would have gone directly to him. I dont think it is problematic to charge from the East to the timber in direct support. I believe the vast majority of the Warriors are on the West (Village side) and I should be able to reach Reno with litle resistance I agree that I could be cought up the same as Reno, however this position may be untenable or a death trap for 140 men, but an excellent defensive position for 350. I also agree with you about time, thats why I wouldnt go to Ford A to wait for Benteen and come up with a plan, Reno doesnt have the time Be Well Dan
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Post by benteen on Sept 10, 2012 12:06:01 GMT -6
[quote author=jag board=theories thread=4291 post=83465 time=1347289009
. At this point in time there is no supposition in need that anyone is in serious trouble, therefore no need to rescue or save anyone or anything. Things seem to be moving along quite well and according to the well accepted if not overused 3 prong attack he's now setting the Indians up for [/quote]
Jag...Well thought out post, but I have to disagree with this part. At 3411 Custer can see that Reno has been stopped and has formed a skirmish line.This was not part ot the plan. The warriors are not running as he thought they would, they are attacking. And they are attacking in force, Things are not moving along quite well, and Reno is in trouble.
Be Well Dan
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Post by quincannon on Sept 10, 2012 12:21:50 GMT -6
Dan: Going by way of Ford A to aid Reno takes time - granted. Going down that bluff and crossing somewhere near Retreat Ford has all sorts of trafficability problems, both with the bluff and a ford that was not really a very good ford but one used by necessity. You must also make the assumption that your decent down the bluff will be seen, and that the hostiles will move to counter your crossing. Do you really want to fight to cross to the village side of the river? Will that be of any aid to Reno? And most of all do you want to fight AT THAT ford, that was not even a good ford? River banks and river bottoms have consequences, and you don't have one bloody idea if they are useable at this point, do you?
You said you went to Ford B. That's why I mentioned it. You don't have to do what Custer did. Do you of all people think that Custer was a very smart guy?
Consider the following:
1)Going by way of Ford A does not mean you must wait for Benteen.
2) If you deploy as far as the timber you are making Benteen's problem in getting to you much harder.
3) Why in the name of Heaven would you ever want to get yourself pinned to a piece of terrain you do not have to, when you can better assist Reno by deploying elsewhere. Of fire and maneuver, when you give up the ability to maneuver, you have only fire left, and you are playing right into the enemies hands. Going to Reno and joining him in the timber is a really BAD idea I don't care how good a defensive piece of terrain it is for 350, it is still a defensive position and you have surrendered the initiative to the enemy. That is another really BAD idea. You surrender initiative ONLY when you are forced to do so. I am against free lunches for the enemy also.
This is for general consideration: There is only one place on that battlefield to employ the regiment in mass, fully deployed the way it should be. You have already fornicated with Fido, by being at 3411 in the first place, and in not being present in valley and in mass. The valley is the only place you can do this. Any approach from the east necessitates crossing the river at a ford. Fords by nature do not allow you to cross in mass. Fords canalize you to the point you most probably have to cross in column. Crossing in column means that if you initial company is stopped, you are stopped. Even in the situation Will presents, with Reno fighting and you (the commander) at 3411 going back to Ford A which is open, you still have to cross in column but there is plenty of unopposed room on the other side to deploy after crossing and before you meet the enemy. No other option provides that, that you presently know of. A bird in had is worth ten in the bush. The fact of you crossing there in all probability means Benteen and the packs will be unopposed also if you are at the same time in direct support of Reno and position yourself to cover the Ford A also.
Also do not forget your physical presence in the valley itself supports Reno. You take away options from the enemy he would have had, had not you been there. Don't ever think joining Reno or engaging in a stand up firefight is the only way to support him. IT IS NOT. In fact it just might be better if you did not.
Tactics are the practical application of common sense. In doing that it is often better to work smart instead of hard.
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jag
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Post by jag on Sept 10, 2012 13:05:04 GMT -6
[quote author=jag board=theories thread=4291 post=83465 time=1347289009 . At this point in time there is no supposition in need that anyone is in serious trouble, therefore no need to rescue or save anyone or anything. Things seem to be moving along quite well and according to the well accepted if not overused 3 prong attack he's now setting the Indians up for... Jag...Well thought out post, but I have to disagree with this part. At 3411 Custer can see that Reno has been stopped and has formed a skirmish line.This was not part ot the plan. The warriors are not running as he thought they would, they are attacking. And they are attacking in force, Things are not moving along quite well, and Reno is in trouble. Be Well Dan Sorry Dan but I didn't have my command go to the top of the mountain, you know, that 3411 area. Instead if you go back and read my first post on this, I had them skirt that hill - Reno Hill, Sharpshooter and Weir. So no none of my command other than the scout team and the Crows was up there to observe - at that time- what was there to see, and all they reported observing, on that score -at that time- was Reno getting close to that village Girard first reported.
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Post by benteen on Sept 10, 2012 13:57:05 GMT -6
Jag.. My fault I was in error, you are correct you believed it to be a waste of time to go to the top of the hill.It would seem clear to me that I have not grasped the concept of the rock drill. I assumed you were put in a position that Custer already did and take it from there. As to my plan of action, it was simple. My men needed help quickly, so I would go to them as directly and as fast as I could and worry about the rest later. This of course violates known tactical rules and concepts. Having been in the military doesnt make me a tactician anymore than standing in my garage makes me a car. So I think what Im going to do is less typing and more reading.
Be Well Dan
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Post by wild on Sept 10, 2012 15:00:23 GMT -6
Colonel My point was that a raid by definition is hit and run. This whatever it is must be hit and keep on hitting until the hitting is done.Running is optional. Ian mentioned that Blue was stuck with the Custer's decision to detach Benteen.I think this limits Blue's options and at best forces a delay in the attack,at worst it results in defeat which we are now seeing unfold in the plays by Blue commanders.It f***s up what was a good idea. Just expanding on the nature of Custer's mission. He was expected to achieve a resounding victory.There was never a chance of that occuring in the manner in which Blue have been committing units peacemeal. The term 3 pronged attack has been bandied about.This is not really possible as timing,communication,visibility,are problematic.What possibly would occur are 3 independant uncoordinated attacks.
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Post by quincannon on Sept 10, 2012 15:54:03 GMT -6
Hopefully for the last time. In this type exercise you are limited by what happened in REAL history before the start of the exercise YOU MAY NOT CHANGE WHAT HAPPENED BEFORE. You may make a decision TO UNDO IT. There is absolutely nothing that says that you cannot recall Benteen. So saying that you can't do this or that because Benteen went wherever he went is nonsense. You may recall him if you see fit, but in so doing you must allow for the time it takes the messenger to get to him, and you must allow for the time it takes to travel to where you want him.
If the start of either of these exercises was before Benteen was sent, then you do not have to send him. They were not. Both Rock Drill 1 and 2 STARTED after Benteen was sent.
Now to your point, considering the above, the Blue Force commander has not surrendered any options, unless YOU want to. He has the option to regather his force and do any damned thing he wants to. The Blue commander does not have to commit units piecemeal. He does not HAVE to do anything
Your last line Richard I agree with completely, UNLESS, the Blue commander has complete control of his units, and those units, even though it is a three pronged attack are in close enough proximity for the Blue commander to control them. Dismiss from you mind that a three pronged attack, or a two pronged attack must be conducted in the manner Custer intended to do it. IT DOES NOT.
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Post by wild on Sept 10, 2012 16:52:46 GMT -6
Colonel There is absolutely nothing that says that you cannot recall Benteen. On the contrary, reality prevents you recalling Benteen until such time as you have reason to so do.And that does not come until at least the time of Reno's attack order. Any recalling of Benteen before that time smacks of hindsight.
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Post by quincannon on Sept 10, 2012 17:28:58 GMT -6
Under the rules of the game you may recall Benteen at any time after the start of the exercise for any reason you wish.
For instance in Rock Drill #1 you could have recalled him when you were a mile and a half away from Ford A. In this exercise you may recall him the moment you reach 3411. You don't need any damned reason other than "I want to"
In Rock Drill #2 at 3411 there would be ample reason to recall him immediately. In Rock Drill #1 that requirement was not so apparent.
So to recap. You are the Blue force commander you may after the start of the exercise do any damned thing YOU want to do with or without reason, and if you have a reason it may be any damned reason you please. You are the commander. Your actions will be judged by history, right or wrong, but there is no one that says you can't. As a commander I don't have to justify what I want to do to anyone save my commander, and only then if it is called into question.
SO TO ANSWER YOUR FINAL QUESTION YOU CAN'T RECALL BENTEEN IN THIS EXERCISE BEFORE YOU GET TO 3411 AND THE START OF THE EXERCISE< SO HINDSIGHT PLAYS NO PART IN IT AND WHAT YOU ARE DOING WITH THIS TYPE OF POST IS SERVING TO CLOUD AND CONFUSE THE ISSUE. JUST WHAT DID YOU NOT UNDERSTAND ABOUT WHAT I WROTE ABOVE? JUST WHAT DID YOU NOT UNDERSTAND ABOUT WHAT I WROTE HERE?
SO WHEN RICHARD MAY YOU RECALL BENTEEN IN THIS EXERCISE> YOUR ANSWER OF RENO'S ATTACK ORDER IS THE WRONG ANSWER, COMPLETELY WRONG.
WHY DO YOU CONTINUE WITH THIS CLAPTRAP. I KNOW YOU CAN READ. I KNOW YOU ARE INTELLIGENT. MONTROSE FULLY SET OUT THE RULES OF THE GAME. ARE YOU CONTENT WITH NOT PARTICIPATING, NOT OFFERING SOLUTIONS, NOT GOING ON THE RECORD AS TO WHAT YOU WOULD DO, AND ARE JUST CONTENT TO MUDDY THE WATERS FOR EVERYONE ELSE?
I UNDERSTAND THE RULES. I HAVE DONE THIS BEFORE. OTHERS MAY NOT. ALL YOU'RE DOING IS MAKING IT DIFFICULT FOR THEM. SO YOU ARE EITHER TRYING TO THROW CRAP IN THE GAME OR IT IS YOU THAT IS NOT PAYING ATTENTION AND HAS NO CLUE AS TO WHAT THIS IS ALL ABOUT. I HOPE IT IS THE LATTER BECAUSE I DON'T WANT TO BELIEVE IT IS THE FORMER.
AND JAG: YOU DON"T HAVE THE OPTION OF JUST SENDING SCOUTS TO THE BLUFFS. YOU MUST BE THERE FOR THAT IS THE START POINT. NO OPTION. YOU MUST BE THERE. I DON't CARE IF YOU THINK IT IS A GOOD IDEA OR NOT. IT MAY VERY WELL BE, BUT THAT'S NOT THE POINT. YOU THE BLUE COMMANDER BEING AT 3411 IS THE START OF THE EXERCISE. YOU MAY NOT CHANGE HISTORY BEFORE THE START POINT ANY MORE THAN WILD OR ANYONE ELSE CAN. FROM THE POINT WHEN YOU ARE AT 3411 YOU MAY THEN DO ANYTHING YOU PLEASE, BUT NOT BEFORE. THOSE ARE THE RULES.
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jag
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Post by jag on Sept 10, 2012 22:51:49 GMT -6
AND JAG: YOU DON"T HAVE THE OPTION OF JUST SENDING SCOUTS TO THE BLUFFS. YOU MUST BE THERE FOR THAT IS THE START POINT. NO OPTION. YOU MUST BE THERE. I DON't CARE IF YOU THINK IT IS A GOOD IDEA OR NOT. IT MAY VERY WELL BE, BUT THAT'S NOT THE POINT. YOU THE BLUE COMMANDER BEING AT 3411 IS THE START OF THE EXERCISE. YOU MAY NOT CHANGE HISTORY BEFORE THE START POINT ANY MORE THAN WILD OR ANYONE ELSE CAN. FROM THE POINT WHEN YOU ARE AT 3411 YOU MAY THEN DO ANYTHING YOU PLEASE, BUT NOT BEFORE. THOSE ARE THE RULES. I'll abide by what Will says. According to what I got from him a little while back and according to what took place just after, when I made my first post, I received no such clap trap, as you put it, from him at that time. I don't like 3411, I don't like Weir Peak, and I don't think those places had a damn thing to do with anything. But being there as such a consensus of opinion that - that's the only place that ever should be considered, I'd have no choice but to stop this clap trap follow the leader charade and do as I, and apparently many others have done - and continue to do, and that is sit in silence and watch you folk make uneducated perfect fools of yourselves. Much more fun that way. And I don't even have to lift a single lazy finger to a key, and have someone, like you, telling me what I can and can't do. There was something else I slipped into the dialogue a while back, but evidently no one noticed, that is, those that have kept their mouths in overdrive because of must have's instead of what if's. There was some reason Reno placed his skirmish line where he did. Any good commander would not have anchored that line where it could have so easily been flanked. Within 10 minutes of its setup the Indians had indeed flanked that skirmish line exactly where he knew they would, where there was cover to sneak up on them and fire at close range. Any, and I do mean any commander of that period would have placed that skirmish line up on the second bench and away from that kind of threat, that is, if it was meant for him to stay there and fight. There was something in Custer's orders to him that precluded them from staying there any great length of time, and the placement of that skirmish line proves it. Had I been able to have continued, I would have developed what was going on, and what was supposed to have happened, but didn't, and no, it wasn't completely Reno's fault. Excuse me Will, while I go find a friendly place to make my rock solid stand against a windbreak and see if fits and starts of farts seep though.
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