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Post by wild on Sept 7, 2012 1:14:32 GMT -6
bc et al
I'd concur. With the NA method of fighting, they would have come around and ran off most of the mules with little trouble. An error which goes unnoticed and is repeted by the blue commanders is the bring pacsmessage from Cooke. The purpose of the bags was to sustain the troops on the march to contact.Once contact had been made and the attack orders given the role of the bags[except reserve ammo]was complete and the bags should have been largered.This would have freed up most of the 140 troops mentioned by Ian. The bags are not a positive factor for the blue force they are in fact tactically negative and deprive the attacking force of 1/6+ of it's manpower. If blue win they capture food stocks for a year.If they lose what does the bags matter. This is a consideration for the blue commanders.How would another 100 troops have changed your attack options.
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jag
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Post by jag on Sept 7, 2012 8:54:52 GMT -6
As the commander, he didn't feel the overwhelming need to call for the packs at the time he sent Reno away. In fact he didn't feel the need to do it for some time later. The choice he had of going over the bluffs to discover what was there or send his scouting team would result in the same info. Sending the whole force there would compromise any stealth he could have preserved by going around its base and put those packs in greater peril by going over it. The commander obviously felt their safety should be secured at the time, as no packs were sent for, therefore his move should be not only be to preserve any plans he had, but preserve with all due forethought their continued forward progress unimpeded. Any thought of relieving the pack train of its escort wasn't even thought of at the time because they could still be bushwacked.
Historical note here. The idea that the packs were sent for anywhere from Reno Hill to the Bouyer bluffs area places the burden of proof on the only person who gave testimony of it, Martin. At the time upon that hill, he said he didn't see Reno's men, and there had to have been a reason he didn't see them or the onrushing Indians who within mere minutes would be meeting them. And I don't believe in the total dust theory, not from those heights as to what was observed. The 2nd thing here was what he did see, a peaceful quiet village occupied by women, children, dogs and ponies. Which not only precludes the dust theory, but also must of necessity ask why he didn't see the Indian warriors in a hurried state to get to Reno and his men? The answer can't lie in the long held position from which some feel it necessarily was, neither can it reconciled with actions known to have been taking place at the same recorded moment in time. It also doesn't jibe with Custer's own words and assessment which agree more with what Martin observed than what was in reality taking place below them.
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Post by quincannon on Sept 7, 2012 9:01:48 GMT -6
Richard I am going to agree and disagree.
The purpose of logistics is to sustain the troops period. That's the disagree part.
In Rock Drill #1 you will notice where I positioned the pack train, at Ford A on the noon village side of the river. There they could have been responsive to any requirement I have while in laager.
In this situation I bring them to the village side of the river and place them in laager.
Where I disagree with you down to the ground is the idea that this would free up troops, presumable to go back to their parent companies. Not so. As long as those packs MAY need to move they must also have the means of that movement. In this particular situation, as in the last, Company B would be employable after they have secured the train long enough to laager, but that's all.
Now I presume to your way of thinking the laager from the packs should have been somewhere between the Divide and the river. Let's say half way. Keeping in mind that the detail men are not there as additional guards, but are there to move the pack train. I would presume you would have the entire column stop., emplace the pack train, redistribute the detailed soldiers to their parent company, leave some as guards, but only a few, and then move forward. That takes time. It leaves the train totally immoble, and if you move as in one of these rock drills, or as history tells us of the actual moves the train is completely unresponsive.
What happens if Custer is caught near the village, pinned and surrounded? What happens if it turns into a prolonged battle lasting several days? Men need ammo resupply. Men need to eat. Men need medical supplies. Under those circumstances would the logistics be responsive following your methods? There is no substitute for ammo when you need it. When you get hungry enough cold hot dogs served at midnight are better than the alternative. When you lay with a bullet wound, all you want is someone to relieve your suffering.
So laager is a good idea somewhere near or in the anticipated zone of action. I agree
Sending the detail men back to their companies is a bad idea if you ever want them to move during the battle, and if you have a crystal ball that says you will never need them OK, but otherwise I disagree.
Logistics first and foremost must be responsive to the needs of the commander. They must retain their means of mobility even though you place them in laager. Today we solve the problem by the means of combat trains (your immediate anticipated needs) and field trains (your long term requirements). In either case though they remain mobile.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 7, 2012 9:25:22 GMT -6
Yes Chuck, when I made up my battle plan in rock drill I, I sent for the ammo packs along with B Company to join me in the valley, the rest of train was to meet up around the ford A area, maybe even cross the river and form up in the rear of the command, but the ammo packs would be brought forward and placed in easy reach of my forward Companies.
Jag, why do you think that Wolf Tooth would head for the pack train? If the Wolf Tooth band had any family in the village, surly they would try and defend the village and save their kin rather than search for a pack train.
Ian.
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Post by wild on Sept 7, 2012 9:56:45 GMT -6
Colonel My thanks for the spelling lesson.You must have been sorely tempted but nice to see the discipline held. I did not see this as being a prolonged action lasting a number of days.I was thinking along Balaclava lines --5 minutes. Obviously you are not fighting the regiment as cavalry. Regards
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jag
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Post by jag on Sept 7, 2012 10:08:34 GMT -6
Yes Chuck, when I made up my battle plan in rock drill I, I sent for the ammo packs along with B Company to join me in the valley, the rest of train was to meet up around the ford A area, maybe even cross the river and form up in the rear of the command, but the ammo packs would be brought forward and placed in easy reach of my forward Companies. Jag, why do you think that Wolf Tooth would head for the pack train? If the Wolf Tooth band had any family in the village, surly they would try and defend the village and save their kin rather than search for a pack train. Ian. sigh, for the umpteenth time... Ian, I think of command having a for certain knowledge that any battle will produce attack opportunities (actions) as well as defensive challenges (reactions), this to include both sides of the conflict. And of necessity any good commander will weigh each in light of what intelligence they have on the field at that time. And I don't exlude Custer, Wolf Tooth, ToJo or Toto wearing a tutu from these command responsibilities. We can bandy about who went or should have went there to do what, and believe firmly within our own convictions that they did, or should have, but if they didn't consider any defensive and only offensive then they deserved what Custer got. The same for the other way around, that's why I don't and didn't exclude Wolf Tooth from the same chance to attack, this of course precluding what we today know about this. They didn't know, something that is entirely missed, dismissed or frowned up because of ignorant beliefs. Many a time parties like Wolf Tooth's were sent in advance to lure the Cavalry into traps, Custer knew this as well as Wolf Tooth. I not only believe, because there is a lack of evidence to suggest otherwise, that Custer didn't know what lay behind Reno-Sharpshooter-Weir Hills. And because there had been a sighting of them reported up there, that it would have been foolhearty to have 1) followed Reno and left Not just Wolf Tooth's band to do what they wanted, but 2) whatever else might have been behind those hills in his rear and the pack train left to the mercy of what might have been much worse than just he and his group ending up biting the dust (only the shirts on their backs and no food or ammo). We can't look at this battle in total hindsight without thinking of the historical context when we as that commander tries to make or change what was done, we just can't, or we've already committed mistakes and errors of enormous proportions and the outcome wont be a credible one to believe. As the commander I wouldn't have done anything different than I have and for the reasons I've stated. And I'm not about to look in hindsight and ignore something just because everyone else is. Play follow the leader if you have to or must, but not I.
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Post by quincannon on Sept 7, 2012 10:16:22 GMT -6
No Richard you are correct. I am not fighting the regiment as a regiment of cavalry in the European tradition of hussars, lancers and the like. I am fighting a unit that is capable both mounted and on foot, playing the advantages and disadvantages of each method off against one another as the situation dictates. We would be a poor army indeed if every one of our units regardless of branch was a one trick pony.. But it would not matter if one of my battalions was the Little Sisters oif the Poor, another a battalion of Mummers from Philly, and the third a Legion from the Do Da Parade, my intention is to fight them within their capabilities and as hard as I can, mounted, dismounted, fighting from tree tops. Whatever it takes.
When you go into battle the first thing you do is expect the unexpected. You know from jump street that things are not going be be as you envision them to be. You must be able to react.
You harken to the long traditions of European cavalry. We don't look at cavalry in the same way. If you in your Wildest (pun intended) dreams think that any action with the American Indian is going to be anything like charging the guns at Balaclava, you are sadly mistaken.
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Post by wild on Sept 7, 2012 12:17:45 GMT -6
Different school of thought Colonel. I'm inclined to think that if a unit is not dedicated then it is a compromise. I see multi tasking as a weakness,a complication,the application of duct tape. Just keep it simple.Let them do what they do best. Now you are fighting the 7th are you not;the historical 7th ,yes? We have discussed the state of preparedness to this benighted unit and just about everyone was in agreement that it comprised garrison troops who fired about 10 rounds a month and never exercised as a regiment. If it is your intention to fight the regiment within it's capibilities it would be best to remember that the little sister of the do da legion of bummers ran them close in field competitions. Regards
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Post by wild on Sept 7, 2012 12:31:09 GMT -6
Jag
As the commander, he didn't feel the overwhelming need to call for the packs at the time he sent Reno away. In fact he didn't feel the need to do it for some time later. The choice he had of going over the bluffs to discover what was there or send his scouting team would result in the same info. Sending the whole force there would compromise any stealth he could have preserved by going around its base and put those packs in greater peril by going over it.[/b] What is point of having a mile long pack train wander into a battle zone? What is the use of a pack train in defeat? The price Custer was paying for his overnight bags was 140 men. Everything must be focused on achieving victory.If the Colonel has his way another 120 will be employed as horse holders.This will result in 260 troops engaged in administration.
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Post by quincannon on Sept 7, 2012 12:37:51 GMT -6
OK Richard, just what DO THEY DO BEST? You fight with the army you have, not the one you wish you had. Evidently they can't ride any better then they can shoot. They don't have sabers for mounted shock action. The have revolvers which cannot be reloaded while mounted without great difficulty. They have a single shot carbine with some decent range. What would you do in this situation. A headlong charge is the most simplistic of solutions. It is also the hardest to control, and peters out fairly quickly. So instead of telling me I can't or shouldn't, hang your ass out on a limb and tell me what you would do so it may be sharpshooted against until the second coming. Springer Jones is the guy who sits in the back of the classroom at Infantry Hall, with his hand perpetually raised with a proposed answer to a question that provides absolute proof that his push to talk switch is perpetually in the depressed position, and that he never monitors the radio in listening silence. So Springer, tell me what you would do. The world waits.
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Post by wild on Sept 7, 2012 13:06:37 GMT -6
No Colonel the world does not hang on every word of mine. We're just a bunch of lonely old men kicking around the ash of battle past.
Possession is 9 points of the law. Custer can put 600 men into the middle of that tented metropolis. He can inflict heavy casualties on the residents by sheer mass of moving horse flesh.He can cut a swath through any dispersed resistance, The enemy are for all practical purposes surprised unorganised infantry,This is what cavalry do best. So much talk about taking the non combatants.Take the centre of the village and you bag more than the non combatants. Now you have at least a 50/50 chance of victory.
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Post by quincannon on Sept 7, 2012 13:44:01 GMT -6
If you feel that is what is best have at it. Getting to the middle of that metropolis might get a wee bit sticky, but you go right ahead if you think that is best. But if your 50 turns out to be 90/10 against what do you do for your second act?
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Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 7, 2012 14:00:20 GMT -6
Jag, the only thing I am playing is rock drill, you mentioned Wolf Tooth in your scenario not me, I have a right to comment, when this rock drill first started (by Montrose) I went to great lengths to keep it real and not use any hindsight, I stated that I was the commander of this Regiment of Cavalry and I was moving across ground which I was not familiar, so all this follow the leader stuff is rubbish, if you read what I posted in rock drill I, you will see that ordered Company B and the ammo packs forward, that would still leave 90+ men with the train, has anyone else suggested this ? The answer is NO, so you can sigh all you want, it is allowed you know,,,
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jag
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Post by jag on Sept 7, 2012 15:31:53 GMT -6
Jag, the only thing I am playing is rock drill, you mentioned Wolf Tooth in your scenario not me, I have a right to comment, when this rock drill first started (by Montrose) I went to great lengths to keep it real and not use any hindsight, I stated that I was the commander of this Regiment of Cavalry and I was moving across ground which I was not familiar, so all this follow the leader stuff is rubbish, if you read what I posted in rock drill I, you will see that ordered Company B and the ammo packs forward, that would still leave 90+ men with the train, has anyone else suggested this ? The answer is NO, so you can sigh all you want, it is allowed you know,,, I made no comment as to what you or anyone else was doing prior to you asking me the question you asked. And I had no intent of berating anyone's idealism as they saw fit to do. In an honest attempt to answer your question, I provided once again the same answer as I had before and followed it up with what I had disagreed with before I ever lent my own work to this effort. Nothing has changed, you can do anything you like, anytime you like without comment from me. But you deserved an honest an answer as I could give and I provided. I can't help it if its disagreeable to you. As was stated prior, in so many words, to each his own and no hard feelings.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 8, 2012 5:19:08 GMT -6
You will find that I am not a man to hold a grudge Jag, we have in large got on so have a good weekend.
Ian.
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