Post by Moltke on Feb 23, 2012 10:13:29 GMT -6
Not a lot.
Based on my work-- and you know my parameters-- Tom Weir reached Weir Peaks at about 3:51 PM. At that time C Company was just beginning to enter hell. That means there was a lot of gunfire-- smoke-- at the end of a 450-500 yard gallop-- dust-- and everyone was in a ravine, out of sight from Weir Peaks. In all likelihood, all Tom Weir could see was troops and smoke on Calhoun Hill. The Luce Ridge/Nye-Cartwright complex of ridges and hills masked any activity in Deep Coulee and its attendant flats.
And to be clear on times, he in all likelihood only witnessed just aftermath of Calhoun Hill's fight correct? Its clear that time and position are difficult to gauge, but when Weir or Benteen are looking out ... were any soldiers still fighting from Custer's command? The units stayed at Wier point for more than a little while. It's one thing to see distant indians shooting into the ground and making conclusions but it's another thing if you had to witness soldiers actually running and dying on Calhoun Hill and doing nothing. I can see that having more effect on the drunk Weir apparently was.
I do not recall Where Custer Fell alluding to times... but I may be wrong... and I cannot check because I just packed away all my books.
Well they don't have a time line laid out, but the chapters do give times ... err well estimated times. For instance they state that 2nd Lt. George Wallace glanced at his watch while crossing the LBR on his way up to Reno Hill at 4:00 pm. And the times mentioned (as well as mine listed earlier) branch from there.
No way; Edgerly never said any such thing... not with a time attached, he didn't.
The description was that shortly after Benteen's forces arrived (here stated as the approx. 4:30 mentioned) Comp. D chased off some warriors firing from some rocks to the north before then waiting for orders to advance which "we felt sure would be given". How trustworthy are his statements to this effect. I'm again trying to picture the situation around the time Wier took off. Eventually Reno and Benteen moved forward after him but then enemy pressure and apparently bad terrain forced them back to the better defensible Reno Hill. But the situation prior to that, is sometimes portrayed in different ways. Sometimes Reno and subsequently Benteen are honored for correctly setting up a defensive position in light of a rout down in the valley and unknown forces fighting elsewhere on the battlefield. But it seems like there are two acts in this play. The first act is the time after the scramble up the hills. We see enemy pressure mostly abate, Reinforcements arrive, Reno having time and the ability to search for his friends body (which he is listed as stating took around half and hour, although I don't see a source listed for this comment so not sure how accurate that is), and various officers and men apparently believing at least some of their forces were in a position well enough to warrant moving out to seek and join the fight. No matter how much time passsed, apparently after Weir leaves the same conclusion is eventually reached by Benteen and likely more to keep the group together rather than put his wounded at risk by joining the fight, by Reno as well. The second act played out is after Weir and Benteen forces halt. They apparently see something to the effect that whatever is happening it's too distant , to obscure, or over with. Then seeing the terrain, and under increasing pressure pull back to Reno Hill. Establishing a perimeter , and conducting a proper and difficult campaign from there. The second act seems rather straight forward but it's the time and decisions of that first act that are most interesting to me. What is your opinion on their situation? Is Edgerly speaking from hindsight as well as the comfortable position of not having to make the difficult decisions at the time or is there some credence to the opinions that a lot of time passed with forces in a position to 'ride to the sound of the guns'? Irregardless of what the outcome or repercussions of such a move might have had, how much force theoretically could have been brought to the fight had Benteen or Reno so chosen. What changed in their situation for Benteen to move with 3 companies after Weir and for Reno to send Ware to instruct Weir to attempt communication with Custer finally. I don't say finally to insinuate something against Reno but simply that it does seem like Weir moving out on his own triggered some altered feelings over their commands. And as I mentioned I was curious about the hinting that Benteen left to follow Weir without Reno's approval either. Any truth to that assertion? Act 1 then could paint 2 pictures.
Door #1. Reno and Benteen (after arriving and seeing the disarray) the decision to unite and coordinate a defensive stand while treating the wounded, bringing the pack train up, and waiting for further ordered from Custer/Terry while simply trying to stay alive. Weir leaves on his own, followed by his company, which prompts Benteen into supporting him with 3 additional companies and eventually prompting Reno into a movement to keep the force together.
Door #2. Reno and his forces scramble up the hill, Reno is distracted and in shock remains focused on his friend demise and his rout. Benteen arrives and concurs that they should remain in place. Weir apparently believes the forces are well off enough and rides off to find Custer. Benteen still realizing that his last orders were to 'come quick' and if Weir somehow finds Custer things might not look good for him to be just sitting there, mounts up with 3 comp. and follows. Reno likewise sees or concurs with Benteen and begins to move the entire force after them.
Both doors close with the halt and subsequent events at Weir point. Now I realize both of these are vague , generalized, and not very accurate but it's those two different opinions of that early phase on Reno Hill that I'm trying to gain a better picture of. I'm not just attempting to ask the age old 'blame benteen/reno?' question. Just opinion and info gathering.
Hare returns at 3:45 PM. The only volleys referred to by more than one person were fired around 3:07 PM, shortly after the last of Benteen's men reached the hilltop.
At the RCOI, Hare stated he heard "two distinct volley's" from Custer's direction. And "I thought he was having a very warm time". I'm assuming this is the volleys you speak of?
So... how much of former private Edward D. Pigford do we want to believe? Oink!
Ha I see what you mean. A lot of times I read the sources statements but the context, dates, and full accounts are harder to come by in a lot of the books. Thanks for the clarification on the oinker.
Huh?!
I'll take that as evidence that censored letters concerning what he saw as bunk
Everyone believed Custer had either been repulsed or made his way back to Terry. If you have a good idea where one guy is, but no real idea where Joe # 2 is, where do you direct the messenger?
I understand the logic and I shouldn't have made it sound as if I felt that was the wrong decision. Others made similar point. Just as that makes sense, it seems that it wouldn't have been a bad idea to also send some kind of force or recon to the north to investigate. The Indian village was pulling out and scouts had sighted the massive swath of them leaving so it just struck me as odd that no reconnaissance was sent north ... or did I just miss where something smaller or limited was sent out. Thanks for the replies and information.