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Post by wild on Feb 24, 2012 13:30:30 GMT -6
Montrose The problem is that Weir exposed the regiment to defeat in detail by getting so far away from the main body. Benteen's movement forward with 3 companies was to compensate for Weir's poor judgment. Both these officers acted without orders.A consequence of acting without orders is that it causes confusion and undermines the control and command function of the officer commanding. Benteen relinquished command of his battalion or so Benteen's apologists would have us believe so how did he get two companies one being Reno's to follow him? Benteen's movement forward compounded Weir's poor judgement rather than compensating for it.
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Post by fred on Feb 24, 2012 16:01:47 GMT -6
David, I am delighted to see you here again. It is always a pleasure to read your posts. ... I wonder if there were occasional gaps or areas where it was less thick than others. After all someone---I forget who---reported seeing mounted Indians firing at what they thought were bodies on the ground... There is no question about this, as far as I am concerned. I would wholeheartedly agree. This is entirely possible, though if anyone saw it, I would suspect it would have been only Weir... not even Benteen, for Benteen would have arrived too late. Those "escapees" would have come off Calhoun Hill or out of the Keogh Sector, and I suspect only two of them-- Butler and Foley-- made it as far as Deep Coulee and the ridges beyond. I would correct this to read, "... the bones of three or four individuals...." It was never determined if those bones were white or red, and since all the troops were accounted for... except maybe for one, and he wouldn't have been in that area, otherwise the burial parties would have found him. Also, remember, there were many Indians there who were alone, not with their families. It would have been rather easy for Indians to have missed someone. I tend to believe this; it is entirely plausible, and as I said, while only two made it as far as Deep Coulee, Indians who saw four men make a break for it could just as easily seen them disappear into the same smoke and dust that shrouded the views from Weir Point. That is Foley. This is quite possible and it could also be what Weir alluded to in this so-called "Letter to Libbie"... a "message to Garcia"! Heaven only knows what spin he would have put on it. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Feb 24, 2012 16:15:56 GMT -6
... I believe there are times that soldiers act in the absence of or in spite of orders. I believe that it is their responsability to do what they deem correct in a situation. I believe if they do so that they are prepared to take the consequences of those contrary actions. I totally agree with this, and I have done this very thing. You read me correctly, Queenie. From everything I have studied, read, and learned, I believe Benteen thought Reno had lost just enough that his-- Reno's-- judgment was clouded and things needed to be done without all the attendant endorsements... "endorsements" being a term we used for approvals at various levels of the command chain. I believe Benteen had a mind-set by this time and he had done everything he believed necessary to secure the weaker parts of the command, i. e., the wounded and the packs, and it was now time to move forward and see what was cooking up ahead. He was probably in no mood for any possible equivocation from anyone, Reno included, especially since Benteen believed Reno was less than a "commanding presence" at this time. This opinion is supported-- indirectly?; directly?-- by a good deal of the accounts we read. Knowing only what I know as a student of this whole fracas, Benteen's actions are precisely what I-- as an officer in the U. S. Army-- would have done. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Feb 24, 2012 17:02:29 GMT -6
Danny-boy, it seems everything gets jumbled today... except for our friend over on "Gobble-di-gook," so feel free to fire away. And it is always my pleasure to talk to you, even if we are limited to this... this... this thing! I have 1/2 dozen reasons why I believe that Custers fight was over quickly... Well, you are correct... but... you need to define where you are starting from. The overall "Custer fight" had many phases. From Ford B is one issue; from Cemetery Ridge is another. And from the first signs of real trouble on Cemetery is quite another. So far, this is all acceptable to me. I fine-tune it a little more, but you are right in the game. From where to where? My timing is as follows: 3:27... Weir turns from the Reno-Benteen ensemble... we do not know if they all actually spoke. 3:35... Weir gets his striker and they start downstream. How fast do you think they moved? I figure a trot of 6 MPH-- no gallop... are you OK with that? I figure they know there are Indians down there; they are being somewhat cautious... 6 MPH works for me. 3:49... at the speed of 6 MPH, they cover the distance-- 1 1/4 miles-- in 14 minutes. 3:51... Weir reaches the northernmost peak. This is considerably more than your 5 minutes. It is also now 44 minutes from when they began hearing the volleys being fired. Did Weir say that? I do not recall. Remember, he died six months later, so he didn't leave very much behind. Not even. Finley Ridge, Calhoun Hill. The Keogh Sector was farther away and masked. Not yet. When I did this timing business, I had to establish certain limits or limitations. I tried as much as possible to set up these limits based on what various people said. If you set one limit at "3" and the next at "4," then everything occurring must fit within that time-frame. Without specifics, you must of necessity make estimates. You know the distances, so to set the speeds-- and therefore the "times"-- you can only use logic and reason. Again... would Weir have galloped to Weir Peaks? I chose "no," because of the presence of Indians in the vicinity, so Weir and a lone soldier with him, would chose a modicum of caution in their travels and approach. Ergo, 6 MPH. That is the best you can do to determine events and their timing. Therefore, it is my opinion that Keogh was still not engaged by the time Weir reached the northern peak. In fact, at that time, Crazy Horse is moving up Deep Ravine and has not yet reached its headcut. Correct. But now-- if you believe my timing and its mechanisms-- you need to adjust your thinking in what Weir saw initially. Again, we must revert to distances and speeds within those two nexuses of timing. I use a time of 3:27 for Custer's departure from Calhoun Hill. Ford D was 2.33 miles away (interesting... the exact same distance as Calhoun Hill from Weir Point!) and I use a speed of 10 MPH for Custer to reach it. Speed was now paramount... remember, he was waiting for Benteen's arrival and had estimated an approximate time; he needed to move rapidly. After all was said and done, he would have back-tracked and reached Cemetery Ridge by 3:54... but you need to account for the variable cueing before you make any determination as to his readiness to do battle. I estimate five minutes. So... from Calhoun Hill to readiness at Cemetery Ridge: 32 minutes. Distances traveled: almost 4 miles, total. Recon time: 4 minutes... no more. And remember, there was some resistance along the way... prior to reaching Ford D. To me, Keogh's real fighting began at 3:55-3:59 and basically concluded at 4:15, give or take a couple of minutes. Remember, Crazy Horse was reputedly involved in the actual LSH fighting, as well. That means the Keogh fight was basically over... except for the mop-up. Custer probably came under serious pressure around 4:09. At that time, "Keogh" was still fighting, but in its last stages. There... now I have spilled most of the beans for my latest "endeavor" of publishing. But I still have a lot left? <g> So, while your times are off a little, you are essentially correct. Again, however, you need to define the "Custer battle"; from "when" to "when," or from "where" to "where." Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Feb 24, 2012 17:19:04 GMT -6
To make this little portion worthwhile, what do you think of a few accounts of a trumpet being heard near the end? A lot of text I've read just chalk it up to likely captured bugle(s) being blown in by the Indians. From 2.3 miles or however far it might have been ... could a soldier distinguish between a 'call' and just random puff some a warrior? Hard to say, Lonewulf. AZ Ranger may be the best person to answer that question. I doubt he inflicted any. If he did, he never said a word about it. Absolutely! Lonewulf, it is a pleasure. Don't ever feel you are asking too much. Your questions help me as much as my answers may help you. I fine-tune my ideas and my theories on these boards and I cannot tell you how much people like DC, "shan," "bc," "AZ," "zekesgirl," "benteen," "montrose," "wild," Queenie, and so many others have helped me. One of the very best is a young lady who goes by the moniker, "clw." The only reason I didn't list her in that little book I wrote is that I have no clue what her name is. I almost met her one time-- at an equestrian event when I lived in Florida-- but my wife got sick and I couldn't get there. My loss. One of the best authorities on Indians... anywhere!Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by wild on Feb 24, 2012 17:59:01 GMT -6
From everything I have studied, read, and learned, I believe Benteen thought Reno had lost just enough that his-- Reno's-- judgment was clouded and things needed to be done without all the attendant endorsements... "endorsements" being a term we used for approvals at various levels of the command chain. The issue is the movement North.The command could remain where it was or it could move North.That Reno showed no enthusiam for such a move did not mean that his judgement was clouded. It was Reno who sent for the ammo and who reacted first to Weir's move.I see nothing in Reno's reported behavior to justify "clouded judgement". And for arguement's sake let's suppose that Reno was not functioning.Benteen's action was not to take command but to act in a manner which added to the confusion. If my friends hold that Benteen's actions were correct then Weir's action was correct and every other officer was at liberty to act as he saw fit. In a word Benteen broke the command structure but failed to offer an alternative. Regards
Addendum Once Benteen decided to halt his battalion and throw his lot in with Reno a move to Custer was off the agenda. Benteen's halt at Reno Hill cost time which rendered a move to Custer superfluous. The elephant in the room is as always Benteen's fear of Weir reaching Custer
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Post by benteen on Feb 24, 2012 18:15:10 GMT -6
[quote author=fred board=basics thread=4107 post=77546 time=
Keogh's real fighting began at 3:55-3:59 and basically concluded at 4:15, give or take a couple of minutes. Remember, Crazy Horse was reputedly involved in the actual LSH fighting, as well. That means the Keogh fight was basically over... except for the mop-up. Custer probably came under serious pressure around 4:09. At that time, "Keogh" was still fighting, but in its last stages.
.[/quote]
Fred,
Captain thanks for being able to decipher that confusing post, and respond to it. I appreciate it. When I state the fight was over quickly, my starting point is when the fight with Keogh actually begins. Not Custer's probe to ford B or any other movements. Just when the warriors first engage Keogh From your times which I completely accept, Keogh's fight begins at 3:55 and ends at 4:15- 20 minutes. Custer's fight begins at 4:09, Ill give him the same 20 minutes and say his fight ends at 4:29. If we add it up Keogh fight beginning at 3:55 and the Custer fight ending at 4:29 we have a total of 34 minutes for Custer's entire battalion to be wiped out. Which is exactly what I believe, a short quick rout lasting between (Once the fighting actually begins) 30 and 45 minutes.
Be Well Dan
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Post by fred on Feb 24, 2012 18:19:44 GMT -6
Dan,
I string out the Custer fight until 4:40. That would still fit within your parameters: 45 minutes.
Very best wishes, Fred.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 24, 2012 18:56:01 GMT -6
For our watercraft school I instruct the use of sound meters. The sounds we are interested in are the loud annoying ones but we understand the use of a meter and sounds of different levels. I would like to know the reading on a meter and the scale used to measure it on the sound test done at LBH.
We recently contracted for sound levels at a proposed shooting range. Listening for shots at three miles was accomplished by knowing exactly when the shots were fired. The actual level was less than normal human conversations. So if one hears shots at several miles than they were not engaged in deep thinking or conversations. You could tell they were shots and if they roll maybe a volley but that could be sound bouncing in the valley also.
Bottom line for me is that sounds of firearms at 3 + miles can be heard but it is not loud and if you are talking you may not have any knowledge of the sound. Makes more sense to me than having liars or truth tellers.
So what a bugle sounds like at a distance maybe low enough in volume to not make out the difference between bugler or Indian.
AZ Ranger
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Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 24, 2012 19:00:05 GMT -6
Her name is MaryLou B.
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Post by clw on Feb 24, 2012 21:08:44 GMT -6
Huh?! Are the poe lice after me?
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Post by benteen on Feb 24, 2012 22:18:49 GMT -6
AZ Ranger,
Steve, when are you going to realize that you have paid your dues a dozen times over my brother, and turn the tin in let somebody else train the youngsters and go and play golf, or ride horses or do whatever you want for the borrowed time God has given you when you came back to the world.
Be Well Semper Fi you and Scott Dan
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Post by fred on Feb 25, 2012 7:08:59 GMT -6
Are the poe lice after me? Check out Reply # 49. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 25, 2012 8:23:42 GMT -6
Huh?! Are the poe lice after me? You have the right to remain silent but please don't. Steve
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Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 25, 2012 9:03:50 GMT -6
AZ Ranger, Steve, when are you going to realize that you have paid your dues a dozen times over my brother, and turn the tin in let somebody else train the youngsters and go and play golf, or ride horses or do whatever you want for the borrowed time God has given you when you came back to the world. Be Well Semper Fi you and Scott Dan Well if William hadn't brought up PACE then it might have happened sooner but I doubt it. PACE is now in our law enforcement procedures manual and the actual implementation is falling into place. We recently did a search warrant and went through it. It makes sense although not to the same detail as what William did it is an improvement from what we did in the past. We had very good plans in the past which were well planned out but alternates, contingencies and emergency were less than desirable. Call 911 was the old emergency plan for example. All kidding aside Dan I have a time certain date of last day of August 2014. I appreciate your comments and realize a 63 year old body is not what I went into the Marine Corps with in 1969. Time and budgets constrain everyone but I think in all agencies at the lowest level of on the ground training it is the instructors that make things happen. There is a bare minimum that is required to maintain a law enforcement certification that is some sort of marksmanship tests and a few judgmental shootings test. The rest is up to the instructors. In my Region myself and my investigator are the lead instructors and we attempt to get as much understanding and techniques to pass on to our troops. We up the benefits to our officers I believe. At our rifle qualification we had the officers load 5 or 6 rounds per magazine and ran them through the course. We quickly learned that most needed more practice of correct techniques to manipulate their carbine. We had just been issued AR 15s last year. We could also carry our own so 7 of our officers had the ARs and the rest were new to them. Based upon what we observed we ordered thousands of 223 rounds and will work on the improvements needed to be proficient under stress. So the carbine school was perfect for us since it gave us the drills to use accomplish our goals. For example the had 10 magazines with 1 round each and timer. You went through that drill many times and are observed to make sure you are doing it correct. On a sad note if you read about the Park Service officer that was shot and killed she had attended the Park Ranger program and was student of our basic firearms course. There is a mindset that must be there no matter how skilled you are with weapon systems. You have to know you are in a gun fight to begin with. In this case it was an area that required tire chains and the subject drove past the stopping point to put on the chains. The subject though he had been identified and fired upon and killed the officer. I am sure William and others will agree that being able to recognize what is going on so that you can deploy the skills you have is extremely important. Anyway enough rambling Dan. I and my investigator have been asking (begging) for new instructors to step forward and so far no takers. As in anything it will take years for an instructor to develop. Semper Fi Steve
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