Thomas Weir and the senses ...

[shan]

Fred,

Thanks for the kind words. Couple of questions.

Is there any evidence that the man that Low Dog reportedly shot was Foley, or is that an assumption on your part? By the way, nothing wrong with the odd assumptions as far as I'm concerned, as you know I for my part am full of them. The description of where it happened in JSIT's book is pretty vague, in fact in memory serves me right he contradicted his previous identification of the location when showing it to someone else in the 30's.

Not that we should blame these people for these apparent failures of memory, I sometimes think we are very very hard on them when most of us make the same sort of mistakes every day.

The other question concerns the remains found on Luce. If we accept that they were really there: two thoughts. Is it just pure coincidence that the Indians talk of a breakout by four men which just happens to tally with the number of dead reportedly found on Luce? Secondly, Whilst I agree that it does seem to be the case that the number of dead from Custer's command were correctly accounted for, but could the remains of these four have been either gathered up, or else included in that final count?

Lastly, whilst I'd concur that they may well have been the odd warrior without a family who got himself killed in some out of the way location and was thus overlooked, this was an area where the warriors knew there had been fighting, so one suspects that it would have been one of the areas they might have gone to after the fighting in order to look for loot. In which case if some, or all of these men were Indians, one would have thought that they would have been gathered up for burial whether they had families or not.

Shan

[quincannon]

Shan: I would like to address your last paragraph if I may. Time available must have an impact on your assumptions. Given an infinate amount of time it could be assumed that all of the bodies from this field would be recovered, regardless of "out of the way" locations. That time was not available for the hostiles, perhaps what 20 or so hours of daylight give or take? Therefore I would find it equally plausable that while the hostiles knew where they had been fighting, 1) it does not automaticly follow that those charged with remains recovery did and; 2) that there was sufficient time available for that recovery.

As late as the 1930's unburied remains were found by the CCC (Civilian Conservation Corps) of Union soldiers on Chinn Ridge presumably from the Second Battle of Manassas in August 1862. So I think at least a partial answer to your inquiry must be Time - Terrain - Who was looking.

[fred]

Feb 25, 2012 9:25:04 GMT -6 shan said:

Thanks for the kind words.

David, it is always a pleasure to give a compliment when one is due.

Is there any evidence that the man that Low Dog reportedly shot was Foley, or is that an assumption on your part?

To my way of thinking, it is fairly certain. There were two Indians there with the name, Low Dog, one a Brulé and the other an Oglala. If Low Dog was the one who killed this trooper, I suspect it would have been the Oglala because in all likelihood he would have ridden with Crazy Horse and these fellows tried their escape from that sector of the battlefield.

Also, we are pretty sure Whistler and Little Killer, both members of Low Dog's band, rode with Crazy Horse, though we do not have the same certainly Log Dog himself did. I do not list him in my book as riding with Horse... but only because of my uncertainty and the fact I can find no conclusive proof he did.

Having said all of that, I am reasonably certain you are correct... as am I. At the 1886 battle re-union organized by COL Herbert Slocum, someone asked Gall about Foley. Gall pointed out exactly where the soldier who shot himself died and it was the Foley location. So while Low Dog may have claimed the coup, apparently that is all it was, a coup, not a killing. If Low Dog was involved in this incident, he was one of three warriors chasing Foley, one of the others being the Minneconjou, Turtle Rib.

The other question concerns the remains found on Luce. If we accept that they were really there: two thoughts. Is it just pure coincidence that the Indians talk of a breakout by four men which just happens to tally with the number of dead reportedly found on Luce? Secondly, Whilst I agree that it does seem to be the case that the number of dead from Custer's command were correctly accounted for, but could the remains of these four have been either gathered up, or else included in that final count?

Your first question: I would say, yes. Sheer coincidence.

Second question: the problem with any of these excess bones being from any other troops is twofold. First, when the troops were first buried, they were interred where they fell. They were removed later, but their locations were marked. Then when the marble markers were put up no others were put up on Luce or Nye-Cartwright, and only Butler and Foley were "memorialized" there.

Since there was activity there-- I believe some or part of the volley firing was directed at the Wolf Tooth/Big Foot band in that vicinity-- it is possible a soldier or two was killed there, but they would have had to have died-- instantly-- otherwise they would not have been left behind. That tells me, in essence, that if those bones did not pre-date the battle, they were from Indians, not soldiers.

... this was an area where the warriors knew there had been fighting, so one suspects that it would have been one of the areas they might have gone to after the fighting in order to look for loot. In which case if some, or all of these men were Indians, one would have thought that they would have been gathered up for burial whether they had families or not.

I would agree, but it is not necessarily the case. If they were "stray" Cheyenne for example, and were riding with Wolf Tooth, they could have been very easily overlooked, especially if the were killed in some small ravine or crawled to some place of cover, dying there. I would agree completely with "quincannon's" post.

How is the weather over there? Weird, here! But at least the cold keeps my wife and I watching Folyle's War and Ngaio Marsh's Inspector Roderick Alleyn series! Finished the two sets of Peter Wimsey and Campion. Really great stuff!!! Ordering the last of the Foyle's War (set 6, here; series 7, over there. I guess post-war).

Best wishes,
Fred.

[quincannon]

Fred: The last of Foyle is "just" post war. All in all a fantastic series.

Be on the lookout for the new three episode package of Sherlock starting 26 May on PBS. If not familiar they are adaptations of Doyle in a modern setting. I throughly enjoyed the three episodes on Masterpeice last summer.

[fred]

Thanks, Queenie, I shall. These things are all brilliantly done and Lisa and I own most of them. I am ordering the Foyle Set 6 from Amazon this weekend. We already own the first five, plus both of the Wimsey, both Campion, and both Alleyn series. I also just read they are going to do three more Foyles for 2013. That will be U.S. set #7, U. K. Series #8, I believe.

I was thinking of buying the Morse sets, but the two of us are dreamers as much as anything, and the earlier settings are marvelous.

I have always been a huge Sherlock Holmes fan, having read all the works several times. I think I also want to buy the big screen versions of the Poirot mysteries, especially since they are all with Peter Ustinov... is the Orient Express one with him or with Suchet? I can't recall. Either way, it is worth owning.

I particularly liked Jeremy Brett as Holmes and every now and then I catch one on one of the local PBS channels... Long Island's, I think: WLIW.

When we watch these things, we usually wait two or three years, then start all over again. Sunday morning fun... or great for a cold, cloudy day.

Best wishes,
Fred.

[quincannon]

Fred: I have all of the Brett Sherlocks. There have been several Orient Expresses. Ustinov did one, I seem to remember. Suchet did one made for TV and shown on Masterpiece either last year or the year before. and Albert Finey did one for the big screen with Bacall, Connery, and one of those all star cast vehicles. All were quite good although slightly different interpretations.

While I like Morse (a lot) I am am a big fan of the spinoff - Lewis. I am probably in the minority here but I think it was the Lewis character that made Morse. What would the Sherlock stories be without Watson?. On his own Lewis has the perfect companion in Fox's character. I also like the strained relationship between Poirot in a couple of the stories with the character played by Zoe Wanamaker (I think that is how it is spelled). She of course is a stand in and alter ego of Christie herself.

Ironpants picked up the new Jack Higgins for me yesterday and the new P.D. James "Death Comes to Pemberly" for herself. She was up untill 0200 reading hers and she is three quarters the way through. James places her novel into Pride and Prejudice with all of those characters. Not my thing, perhaps not yours, but perhaps you might mention it to Lisa.

[wild]

What would the Sherlock stories be without Watson?.
Colonel, you do know that Watson was actually Sir Arthur himself?

[clw]

Feb 24, 2012 22:18:49 GMT -6 benteen said:

AZ Ranger,

Steve, when are you going to realize that you have paid your dues a dozen times over my brother, and turn the tin in let somebody else train the youngsters and go and play golf, or ride horses or do whatever you want for the borrowed time God has given you when you came back to the world.

Well said. But knowing men like Steve are tending to business is a great comfort to old ladies like me.

[quincannon]

Yes Richard I did. Further Holmes himself was based upon Doctor Joseph Bell, Doyle's mentor in Scotland. There was a BBC series on a young Doyle and Bell several years ago which we get here on Masterpiece Mystery, the summer series that runs in conjunction with and a replacement for Masterpiece Theater.

But did you know that Old Ironpants is really Irene Adler - "That Woman" ? I am the guy she ran away with at the conclusion of Scandal in Bohemia

[wild]

That would do justice to the Riddler Cathal.
How did Curtis LeMay,Wallace Simpson and your good self get into a Sherlock Holmes novel?

[clw]

Foyle's War is excellent television!!

[quincannon]

Richard Old Son:

Curtis Lemay: My Old Iron Pants makes that Old Iron Pants seem like the Tooth Fairy

Irene Adler makes Wallace Warfield Simpson seem like Mother Teresa with a double ration of virginity

Me: I just got lucky.

[clw]

On whether or not any NDN dead were urecovered because they had no family there, that just wouldn't happen. No warrior was anonymous and all the dead would be honored. It's possible some couldn't be found, but not for want of trying.

I understand the consideration of a time shortage to accomplish the job, but I think it's balanced by the sheer number of people available to do it.

Now back to PBS please...

[shan]

Fred,

I'm going to ramble here a bit as we are talking about one of my pet subjects which is Low Dog himself.

The description of the killing in JSIT's book: and I'll have to paraphrase here as the books at at the other end of the house, talks of Low Dog and a Cheyenne by the name of Little Sun coming across the lone escapee as they were coming back from keeping an eye on the Reno end of the field.

He somehow managed to avoid them and looked like he was pulling away as his horse was more powerful than theirs, when Low Dog dismounted, took careful aim and shot the man off his horse. There is no mention of coups, although that's no reason to suspect that they didn't take them, and if memory serves me right, it was Little Sun who finally claimed the horse as his own rather than Low Dog.

Now, with all the noise and that many bullets flying around it's perfectly possible that A. Foley shot himself before Low Dog shot him, { if he did} and thus the Indians naturally assumed it was Low Dogs shot that did the damage, or B. that Foley is not the man the Indians talk of as shooting himself when it seems he had no real need as it looked like he would get away. Without access to my books I seem to remember at least a couple of visual depictions of this event; plus several oral accounts which place the rider in several different parts of the field, with Harrington himself thought to be one of the candidates.

Be that as it may, you may well be right Fred that Foley was the man who Low Dog may or may not have killed, without any post mortem evidence I guess we will never know.

Before I move on, Fred you seem to have some evidence on Low Dog that I've been unable to lay my hands on, such as the names of two of his followers, Whistler and Little Killer. May I ask where you found this information? If this seems the wrong board or place to be talking about these things then maybe you could e-mail me either through my website, or I think my e-mail is on here. I'd be very grateful if you could, but would understand if you didn't. Incidentally, I've never be able to get to the bottom of which Low Dog, the Brule or the Oglala was part of the delegation sent to talk with Wovoka, I've read that it was the Brule, but given that the Oglala was considered a trouble maker prior to, and during the Ghost Dance outbreak, and given that he was sent to prison because of this, I'm guessing it was the Oglala.

With regards to the bodies, or rather the bones found up on Luce: quincannon, whilst I appreciate what you say, two points. As large numbers of warriors began to leave the Custer field and move towards the troopers on Weir point, I suspect that many of them would have chosen to travel across Nye and Luce as it is less cut up than traveling closer to the river, plus you have a better field of vision as to where you want to be. Yes okay it's a big area, but we are talking about a lot of warriors scattered across it as they moved to engage Reno. Even if they had more pressing matters than to stop and look see who the dead were, I would have thought that some at least would have either come back at some point, or else informed some non-coms of what they'd seen.

I'm with clw on this one. If the bodies were found relatively close together: as seems to be the case, and nor scattered in hollows and ravines, then personally I think great efforts would have been made to recover them.

There is one other possibility. Again without resource to my books; if only I had a memory chip in my head that I could draw on, there was I believe a fight with the Crows in the general area not that long before the Custer battle, so, could these bodies be the aftermath of that little scap? Just a shot in the dark.

Finally, to answer your question Fred. Here in the West we've had one of the mildest winters for many a year after having geared ourselves up for the supposed big freeze. They had it much colder over in the East: mind you that's only 250 miles away, a pop down to the shop for you guys, but then they are that little bit nearer to Siberia. As to Foyle's war. I'm both delighted and perplexed that so many of you on that side of the pond seem to like our little secret. I've been a fan from the very beginning. Loverly slow pace, lots of period detail, little outright violence graphic or otherwise, and a leading actor who can do more with his lower lip and eyebrows than most Oscar winners ever will. How does he get away with doing so little? But he does.

regards Shan

[fred]

Feb 26, 2012 3:21:11 GMT -6 shan said:

... plus several oral accounts which place the rider in several different parts of the field, with Harrington himself thought to be one of the candidates.

David,

If I am not mistaken, there are only a few-- three?-- incidents of "escapees," maybe others rolled into one of these three. The man who shot himself is probably the most well-known and you are correct, some people feel that was Henry Harrington. I do not. In fact, I am as certain as I can be regarding Harrington's fate: where, when, and how.

That's two.... The third involves the Company I blacksmith, Henry Allen Bailey, generally thought to be memorialized by Marker 174, located at the eastern and southern end of the Keogh Sector, right next to the boundary fence. As usual, there is the normal controversy about Bailey, one account claiming he was mounted, other accounts saying he was afoot.

That leaves Foley.

Before I move on, Fred you seem to have some evidence on Low Dog that I've been unable to lay my hands on, such as the names of two of his followers, Whistler and Little Killer. May I ask where you found this information?

You may indeed. Whistler was listed in the Crazy Horse surrender ledger in 1877, and along with The Bud, was listed as "head-of-household." There were seven people in his lodge, including four women and one small female child. He was known as a member of Low Dog's band and was known to have been at the battle. There was a second Whistler-- also an Oglala-- with eerily similar stats, but known to be a different person.

Little Killer-- also an Oglala-- was the brother of Club Man... and by the way, only died in 1939. His lodge consisted of himself, two female adults, two male children, and three female children.

All of this was provided by Ephriam Dickson, who has written articles on his research into these people.

... I've never be able to get to the bottom of which Low Dog, the Brule or the Oglala was part of the delegation sent to talk with Wovoka, I've read that it was the Brule, but given that the Oglala was considered a trouble maker prior to, and during the Ghost Dance outbreak, and given that he was sent to prison because of this, I'm guessing it was the Oglala.

The Oglala died in 1894, and in all likelihood lived at Pine Ridge. The Brulé lived at Standing Rock and was still alive in 1926.

I'm with clw on this one. If the bodies were found relatively close together: as seems to be the case, and nor scattered in hollows and ravines, then personally I think great efforts would have been made to recover them.

I would tend to agree. If "CLW" makes the point, it is pretty definitive. I would accept her word on it. That leaves the issue of time only. I would still opt for Indians rather than soldiers, simply because of the markers. While we know many of them are misplaced, two bodies, this far afield, would seem to me to stand out so much-- just like Butler and Foley-- that no errant placements would have occurred here. Of course, we have no specific marker for Dose, and the Kellogg marker might as well be in another state it is so far removed from where the man died.

Another possibility is that those bones may pre-date the battle and are merely incidental finds.

... there was I believe a fight with the Crows in the general area not that long before the Custer battle, so, could these bodies be the aftermath of that little scap?

According to the Crows' tales-- a minefield of inconsistencies, rodomontade bluster, and outright hogwash-- White Man Runs Him, Goes Ahead, and Hairy Moccasin went as far as what some call, "Boyer's Bluff, and popped off a number of rounds into the Sans Arc and/or Minneconjou circles, the ones closest to the Cheyenne. If those three Olympic tri-athletes managed to hit anything, it would have been west of the river, so I do not think any bodies can be ascribed to them.

As to Foyle's war. I'm both delighted and perplexed that so many of you on that side of the pond seem to like our little secret. I've been a fan from the very beginning. Loverly slow pace, lots of period detail, little outright violence graphic or otherwise, and a leading actor who can do more with his lower lip and eyebrows than most Oscar winners ever will. How does he get away with doing so little? But he does.

David, I find Michael Kitchen, brilliant. I could not conceive of a better man for the role. I am somewhat prejudiced, however. To me, the world's finest actors and writers-- by far!-- come from England/Scotland/Ireland/Wales. You own the language, of course, but how and where you train actors is beyond me. With only a couple of exceptions off the top of my head, I can think of no one over here who can compete with the vast majority of UK thespians. DeNiro, Pacino, Streep, Hoffman... who else here? (Still alive, that is. Brando may have been my all-time favorite... but that's a whole different story.)

Best wishes,
Fred.