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Post by stevewilk on Feb 27, 2012 23:57:58 GMT -6
What I'm referencing is a fight between the Army and some disgruntled scouts. It was not a big fight, but as I recall it was in the cemetery area and thereabouts and this a few years after the battle. We talked about it on this board some years back. That's literally all I remember, and I remember it solely because it was yet another source of cases and stuff that, found today, ought not to be incorporated into a Custer battle scenario. Sorry, battle model. Surely there are those here who recall it since I don't want to look it up. Could you be thinking of the Sword Bearer uprising? This occurred in 1887, not exactly a "few years" after the Custer fight. Eight troops of cavalry and five companies of infantry flooded the Crow Agency area. Things came to a head on 5 Nov 1887 when Sword Bearer made the obligatory "bravery run" with typical results. He and his mount were both wounded. He then fled east of the LBH River. His father chased after him and shamed him into returning to the agency. While taking a drink from the river, Fire Bear, a Crow policeman, put a bullet in his head. Seven Crows were killed, as well as one soldier. Source: Michno Encyclopedia of Indian Wars
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Gerry
Junior Member
Peter
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Post by Gerry on Feb 28, 2012 0:03:01 GMT -6
Where were the Indians that were observed in Thompson's narrative above him when Weir rode along the bluffs? Steve, Thompson and Watson joined Co B during the advance toward Capt Weir. The Indians shot at them from below as the two soldiers climbed the buff up to Reno's advancing column. Thompson wrote, "a large body of Indians had crossed the river and were coming across the flat toward the hill we were climbing."At the same time Thompson and Watson were climbing the bluff: From the Helena Herald, Thursday, July 8, 1876. Coming out of the valley, George Herendeen said," We reached Reno in safety. We had not been with Reno more than fifteen minutes when I saw the Indians coming up the valley from Custer's fight. Reno was then moving his whole command down the ridge toward Custer. The Indians crossed the river below Reno and swarmed up the bluff on all sides.Godfrey was put on the bluffs, south of Weir Point, to stop the Indians from coming up from below at the river. Gerry
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Post by El Crab on Feb 28, 2012 0:04:58 GMT -6
Ok. Is the skull the only part of the skeleton that can identify remains as Native American or Caucasian? At least some of Bouyer's remains were identified due to being mixed race. And the remains of an old Indian woman was found as well in the digs, in the valley fight area I believe. But twice remains were able to be identified as non-caucasian. Can this be determined from more bones than the skull?
Also, wouldn't the disposition of the bones when found be an indicator of whether they were an actual burial versus undiscovered deaths that lay out in the sun for years and years?
Point being, weren't the remains found in the Nye Cartwright identifiable as caucasian or native, and wouldn't the state/condition/disposition of the remains indicate that they're either likely from the battle or from another source?
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Gerry
Junior Member
Peter
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Post by Gerry on Feb 28, 2012 0:28:01 GMT -6
[/size] dc, I work with a little fellow that does the same move, I always call it bantam rooster. Some say it is a movement showing attitude. Meeting with Camp, Knipe, and Curley probably gave him an attitude. I think it was then when Camp said something about Thompson getting upset. I do not think that the meeting at the battlefield went good for Thompson...arms akimbo. But all joking aside...If you look again at that picture it is his right arm that is akimbo. His elbow was not able to straighten out from the bullet in his elbow. Also in the picture his right index finger is missing at the knuckle. Thompson was wounded taking the hill along with Pvt Meador who lost his life, morning of the 26th. Gerry
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Post by clw on Feb 28, 2012 9:14:34 GMT -6
The Little Bighorn valley had been a contended area ever since the Lakota began pushing west into Crow country. The Crow's Nest got it's name because it had long been established as a lookout point for those contesting the valley. There could have been numerous skimishes in the area that are undocumented.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Feb 28, 2012 9:18:13 GMT -6
stevewilk,
I sure could be. I keep forgetting Michno's book, a foot from my arm as I type. It's entirely handy. But: still too far away. If this fight was on the battlefield-ish, that's what I'm thinking of, although you're correct, I thought it closer than eleven years.
Gerry,
If that's the cause of the arms akimbo, I owe Thompson an apology for vectoring in on that. On the other hand, I've read his account and still cannot believe him even if he sticks to truth alone for a spell.
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Post by shan on Feb 28, 2012 10:09:18 GMT -6
With regards to the problem of just who those bodies were up on Luce ridge.
Checking the back through the Blish book I mentioned earlier, the one big fight in the general area of LBH that I can find was known by the Sioux as, ' When they retreated to camp.' and as far as I can make out this battle took place in 1870. The drawings Amos Bad heart Bull made reflect that as far as they were concerned, this was a pretty big fight with lots of men involved and a number being killed. Unfortunately, the map he has drawn is not specific enough to pin it down to the general area we are discussing, only that much of the battle swayed back and forth somewhere across the Little Big Horn river. All in all, and given the time element, I think it unlikely that the bodies under discussion are those of the Indians killed in that fight.
Checking Greene's map again one can't get away from the fact that he marks out where four human skeletons lay fairly close by four horses skeletons, so I think it fairly safe to assume that whoever they are, they were mounted men who were killed at roughly the same time as their animals.
The placement of the bodies, and here I have to admit that it's difficult to pin down just how close to each other they were due to the scale of the map, seems to be the Southern side of Luce, just above upper Medicine Tail coulee.
If I had to guess, I'd say that a couple of the dead lay within 40 to 50 yards of each other, the others being maybe another 100 yards further on. But what really sets the cat amongst the pigeons for me, is the fact that he sites various items that were found close by these bodies, all of which appear to be army items, whether they be bits of horse equipment or other artifacts.
As others have pointed out, these four dead men are surplus to requirements given that all of Custers dead are both accounted for, and, if we are to believe what we read, have be gathered up and buried. Nevertheless its very suspicious. We know that part of Custers command traversed this are, we know that they were engaged by Wolf Tooth's band, and that they probably came under fire from other areas as well, and yet the evidence seems to say that these can't be army men.
Shan
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Post by Dark Cloud on Feb 28, 2012 10:25:28 GMT -6
Every time the Army took charge of burials of its dead on the field, they lied through their teeth.
Every.
Time.
For the same reasons I don't believe Thompson, we have enough evidence of Army fabrications to not grant Truth to its remarks on this subject.
I feel for them, in that they didn't have money, time, or men to devote to this, and they had reason to feel the battlefield would host about 100 people in as many years and things would calm down. If only.
Men by horses doesn't necessarily mean much on that field. I've suggested in contradiction to Fox that 'bunching' isn't really proven by parts of human skeletons in proximity, nor is it proof they died so close together. They could have been two men taking sequential cover behind a dead horse, the bones of which mount were gathered up and buried where the monument is and then moved.
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Post by Margaret on Feb 28, 2012 11:53:42 GMT -6
Checking the back through the Blish book I mentioned earlier, the one big fight in the general area of LBH that I can find was known by the Sioux as, ' When they retreated to camp.' and as far as I can make out this battle took place in 1870. The drawings Amos Bad heart Bull made reflect that as far as they were concerned, this was a pretty big fight with lots of men involved and a number being killed.... ...I think that's the same battle Le Forge was referring to. I guessed at 1873 as it seemed to fit the chronology but he merely states ''during those times''.... He seems clear about which river it was on though. Apparently the Sioux were routed, and fled the field in haste which seems to agree with Mr Bad Heart Bull there... ..thank you for that,
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Post by wild on Feb 28, 2012 11:56:38 GMT -6
Has the board been hijacked by closet necrophiliacs? You know the way greeks take the minutiae of their interests to the Nth degree but surely "bones" is over doing it a bit. Anyway the only thing I know about Bones is that he was the quack on the Starship Enterprise. Regards
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Post by wild on Feb 29, 2012 7:32:48 GMT -6
It must have been patently obvious to the observers on Weir Point that there was no attack in progress on the village and that what visual evidence there was, indicated an action some distance to the East of the village. There must have been indications of traffic leaving the village and heading for the point of conflict. No need to hear volleys or see maneuverings,Custer was heavily engaged and fighting for his life. Decision time.What to do?Plant a guidon and withdraw.
Addendum Benteen was a good soldier but not a marine or a SEAL or a ranger or even a Fianóglach.He was of the stuff of good line officers.In for the long haul not the one off glory stuff. I think Fred described him as a loyal soldier.No he was not loyal.Loyalty comes with a price.Loyalty gets you killed. Benteen recognised the mess into which Custer had led the regiment and he wanted none of it. Benteen was a survivor,stick with him and you would be ok. The one injustice visited upon him was to portray him as a saint.
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Post by Rabble on Feb 29, 2012 20:58:27 GMT -6
There is a 14 page article regarding Sword Bearer and the "Crow Outbreak of 1887" by Colin G Calloway in the Autumn 1986 edition of "Montana - Magazine of Western History"
Ron
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Post by herosrest on Sept 29, 2022 16:00:41 GMT -6
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