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Post by benteen on Feb 23, 2012 21:37:54 GMT -6
Captain Fred, good to see you posting tonight I would like to take a shot at my post that I deleted without exact times and see what you think. I have 1/2 dozen reasons why I believe that Custers fight was over quickly but this thread is about Capt Weir so I will stick to that. My times between events is as follows, Benteen arrives on Reno hill app 10 minutes after Reno and the remnants of his command arrive. Shortly after (a guess) 5 minutes later they hear firing. 1/2 hr after they arrive, which is 25 min after they hear firing, Weir does his I got to get to Custer act. Give Capt Weir 5min to get to the high ground which is 1/2 hr after the firing is heard, and he says that he sees warriors shooting at objects on the ground. Because of what you , Dark Cloud and others have said about not being able to see to last stand hill, this has to be the Keogh sector. Because of this siting I believe Keogh's entire command is down. Warriors would not be shooting the wounded and dead if there were live soldiers shooting at them Custer went further North so I believe it took another 5 or 10 min for him to be engaged but I believe both these battles were going on simultaneously. When Keogh was destroyed Custer was only that 5 or 10 min behind. This Captain was a complete and total rout. You know I don't have thin skin so if my times are inaccurate I would appreciate very much if you would correct me. Be Well Dangerous Dan (Put that in for you Britt) PS.. I hope what I said makes sense it is 2245 hrs and I have been chatting with MR Rossi about the days events
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Post by quincannon on Feb 23, 2012 22:00:16 GMT -6
Yes: Fred, I think he is. Maybe not the Zorro, but the Don Diego Vega is
Down the road Fred.
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Post by quincannon on Feb 23, 2012 22:01:18 GMT -6
OK Danny Boy. What is today 23 February.
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Post by benteen on Feb 23, 2012 22:26:04 GMT -6
Yes sir, I looked at the paper and it is indeed the 23 of February. But O Lord Mr Daniels is getting into my conversation so l will probably be shot until tomorrow when I will grace the board with more of my pearls of wisdom
Be Well Don, or Dan, or Dave, Whatever I will figure it out tomorrow ;D
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Post by quincannon on Feb 23, 2012 23:29:21 GMT -6
23 February Dan. The Flag on Iwo Jima
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Post by El Crab on Feb 24, 2012 2:22:24 GMT -6
Damn right, Queenie. Young Lonewulf is a clone of El Crab, also still wet behind the ears. It is great to see two young men, so literate, so sharp, and so interested. What a pleasure. Even DC has to be smiling (secretly, of course) over this. The world has been saved! Good night, Chuck. See you later. Very best wishes, Fred. Awwwww. I feel all warm and fuzzy. I've been studying this battle for quite a while though. But I'll agree with you wholeheartedly, Fred. Because I've been divorcing myself from all the things I used to think about the battle, and as I've become older and less stubborn, I've tried to approach this battle more objectively. The mere passage of time is a great thing when studying this battle. I've found that spending time away from the battle and discussion cleanses the palate. It allows you to slow down and get your thoughts in order. And probably most importantly, it allows you to see the areas you just don't know as much as you think (or should). Which is why I appreciate Fred so much. He's got his ducks in a row when it comes to accounts, who said what, etc. I tend to go off of memory (and hate myself for not just getting my lazy ass up and checking my believed source instead of merely qualifying every statement with "I believe it was..."). It's a habit I'm trying to break. I'm also trying hard to get away from trying to get away from conjecture about what might've been, and focus on what was. Having started that process, I definitely feel that the battle becomes much easier to view objectively. And it seems to be easier to view it in general.
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Post by wild on Feb 24, 2012 3:26:51 GMT -6
First and foremost, Benteen was a soldier... and a soldier of considerable ability and bravery. No one will ever be able to convince me that any personal dislike or animosity toward Custer would have influenced Benteen in any way when it came to doing his duty.
And
Either way, Benteen was now ready to move-- the packs were seen coming up the hill, McDougall leading-- and regardless what Reno said, wanted, or ordered, Benteen was moving.
But
Reno was the boss; Benteen now fell under Reno's command
Fred, you just cannot do this sort of thing. This is a contradiction. You are the time keeper here.The research you have devoted to accounting for every second of the battle is beyond the call. But when it comes to Benteen and the "advance" we get spin. Benteen acted without permission and caused a disorganised movement into terrain controlled by the Indians endangering the command. Insert Commanding officer into the above rather than Reno and you get " and regardless what his commanding officer said, wanted, or ordered, Benteen was moving." Some soldier? Regards
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Post by quincannon on Feb 24, 2012 4:20:59 GMT -6
Richard: I am on the horns here.
Everything Fred said in the three lines you quoted would mirror my views also. That said I believe there are times that soldiers act in the absence of or in spite of orders. I believe that it is their responsability to do what they deem correct in a situation. I believe if they do so that they are prepared to take the consequences of those contrary actions.
I will leave the right or wrong of those actions to you and others. That I see is a seperate debate. What I am saying, and what I believe Fred is saying here is that this was one of those moments where what Benteen felt was the right thing to do, he did.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 24, 2012 7:04:57 GMT -6
Just finished a carbine class at Fort Huachuca in southern Arizona. Great class and we were making consistent hits out to 300 yards. What struck me is that there were only 7 participants and the dust around the targets would make them disappear. If more than one shooter focused on the same target. Also the tunnel vision that occurs when attempting to shoot a particular target is extremely high. Not sure how much recollection anyone has of events around them when you are shooting. Reloading would really take your mind off what else is going if you have not practiced it a lot.
I did find that old can not compete with young for speed but accuracy is still there. Shot top score and cleaned the last three exercises with no misses. Times were closer to the lower end. So the decision when to shoot is critical and hope the bad guy is not accurate because I will be. They did see a lot of Marine Corps handling of an M 4 that they could identify and attempted to correct or improve upon. I was tapping my magazine to make sure it was seated and didn't realize I was doing it for every magazine exchange. Amazing that some manipulations stay in your mind for over 40 years.
Sorry for the diversion
AZ Ranger
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Post by Dark Cloud on Feb 24, 2012 7:34:39 GMT -6
Yeah, stop clogging up the board with relevance and first hand experience directly applicable to the subject matter. There are standards here, AZ. You can't keep breaking them with actual information.
Wilde continues his slander of Benteen, because that's what he does.
1. "Benteen acted without permission and caused a disorganised movement into terrain controlled by the Indians endangering the command."
I'm only a civvy, but I imagine successful military types like the US Army don't wait for requests to descend from above to act constructively in the field. First, Benteen was not the first to go, that was Weir and his orderly followed by Edgerly and his company. That makes Benteen the third group.
Second, Benteen's movement of three companies is not described as disorganized by anyone, ever, except Wilde. Third, the terrain was not controlled by Indians. If Weir and company had been engaged en route, that would have been one thing. But they were not. Alert officers notice this sort of thing. Alert readers can as well, but not if they try to make everything look like a disaster.
If what Wilde fibs about were true, he has problems with the casualty figures, so far one (1) farrier for the entire movement out and back. What a disaster! And under fire as well.
Nobody tried to betray his unit or friends to the Sioux for money or power, either. That alone confuses Wilde.
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Post by Moltke on Feb 24, 2012 7:37:23 GMT -6
LW44: Just to be clear here. My remarks were addressed to actions after the Reno Hill fight, and in conjunction with sending a message to Terry. I trust there was no misunderstanding on your part about that. No worries, I was with you. I think any misunderstanding was likely due on my part as I was both directing questions concerning the messengers sent out to Terry specifically as well as questioning what I wasn't aware of in regards to Reno and the battlefield specifically toward the North. 23 February Dan. The Flag on Iwo Jima Now that's an anniversary that is more than worth mentioning while also sadly one that wasn't a headline. Fred: Buy Lonewolf a drink (Bushmills or your a bounder). And for that mention I'd say the drink(s) on me ... Crown and coke (hold the coke) sound alright for the room? Cheers!
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Post by Moltke on Feb 24, 2012 8:58:14 GMT -6
Not necessarily. The timing is such that Weir could have seen the entire Calhoun Hill fight. Keep in mind, however, the amount of smoke rising from the battlefield, plus the fact that the northernmost peak of Weir is 2.33 miles from Calhoun Hill, and without decent glasses Weir was not going to be seeing much of anything. I see. The reason I asked , is that Weir's utter collapse and death from the bottle after the fight seemed to just hinge on something. It's apparent that the guy was a drunk , and guilt and blame combined with whiskey probably could doom someone but the rapid decline, along with Weir's position to perhaps be the only one to witness not just the dust and bodies but potentially a few events of the direct conclusion. It's one thing to picture and see the bodies afterwards, but if he caught a glimpse of some of the last few soldiers being ran down or chased or surrounded, that might add significantly to everyones guilt and shame felt. But anyway, all speculation and I admit a little to much dramatic imagination. We will never have that real lone survivor to tell the true tale, so the next best thing is to imagine at least someone see part of the fight. To make this little portion worthwhile, what do you think of a few accounts of a trumpet being heard near the end? A lot of text I've read just chalk it up to likely captured bugle(s) being blown in by the Indians. From 2.3 miles or however far it might have been ... could a soldier distinguish between a 'call' and just random puff some a warrior? Just curiosity again. Based on the majority of accounts the lead elements of Benteen's "new" command-- companies H, M, and K-- would be approaching the Weir complex at about 4:14 PM. By 4:53, Edgerly was instructing his men to ease off the firing; at 5:03, French begins pulling back; a minute later, Edgerly orders a withdrawal. At 5:09, Godfrey begins to move back... he was the last to leave. If you count from the time Edgerly reached his farthest point north, then backtracked to the loaf, the troops would have occupied the hill complex for about 1 1/4 hours. What they could see was enough Indians to their immediate front for Edgerly to be firing at them... and remember the effective range of a carbine was only about 250 yards, so whoever Edgerly was firing at was probably the Indians from the valley fight left behind to keep an eye on the troops on Reno Hill. Pretty soon, whoever had the field glasses, spotted Indians well to the north turn and head toward them. A lot of Indians! Couple questions jump to mind reading this. First, one of the many things always wildly speculated on is Indiana KIA's. We obviously can't count them on the Custer field, but in this case it might be noteworthy to inquire as to what (if any) kind of casulaties was Edgerly able to inflict in the region. Do any of them ever record how much damage the thought they done? Secondly, having trouble picturing the withdraw properly. By the time Godfrey left, they were right on his heels correct? Always feel especially bad for poor V. Charley around this point ... Lonewulf, I would doubt seriously that Weir could see much of anything other than confusion. If you ever get a chance, watch the movie, Gettysburg. They used reenactors, not movie extras. Watch some of the battle scenes and take a good look at what black powder raises in the way of smoke. Dark Cloud and I have been harping on this smoke and dust issue for years. It can never be discounted in this thing. Happens to be #2 on my all time favorite movies list actually, but that makes it all the more frustrating to myself that I never used it as reference for imagining some of the scenery Weir and the others must have seen. I've attempted to get involved in reenacting myself the past couple years but due to a house fire, getting married, and especially the cost involved, I remain an unfortunate outsider still. The unit I was planning on joining was gearing up for the 150th ACW events and I wanted to take part in them. But I can still go and cheer them on and plan for the future. I'll be doing just that in the next few weeks as I visit Fort Donaldson and Shiloh. Thanks for the reference though Fred ... Remember, these guys believed the Indian pull-out may have been a ruse, so all the troops did was strive to improve their position. Plus, it was getting dark. They needed to make sure. Also... what would a recon do at this point? Hmmm, yeah the coming of night would and should dissuade this. I hope some of my answers weren't a bit too testy. I am an old jerk with not a lot of patience and sometimes I get frustrated with other things, then take it out on people I shouldn't. So if you detect a little bile now and again, cut an old man a little slack, will you? ... < craws out from beneath his flame retardant cloak> Just kidding. No worries Fred. I wold expect if the sheer volume of questions doesn't get slightly tedius , then the content of some of my questions must cause your eyes to roll more than a few times. At least unless you're training for Jeopardy that is. Thank you for the kind words. You and the entire board has been immensly helpful and informative. El Crab said it best below, concerning 'things I think I know just based on ... well 'history channel' bites. I've been studying this battle for quite a while though. But I'll agree with you wholeheartedly, Fred. Because I've been divorcing myself from all the things I used to think about the battle, ... Speaking of wise words from El Crab, Which is why I appreciate Fred so much. He's got his ducks in a row when it comes to accounts, who said what, etc. I tend to go off of memory (and hate myself for not just getting my lazy ass up and checking my believed source instead of merely qualifying every statement with "I believe it was..."). It's a habit I'm trying to break. Agreed! I'm also trying hard to get away from trying to get away from conjecture about what might've been, and focus on what was. Having started that process, I definitely feel that the battle becomes much easier to view objectively. ... Another hard habit for me to break. Perhaps doubly hard in that I read perhaps 90% non-fiction but out of that other portion of my reading there is a chunk that has interest in alternate history 'what if' scenarios so that mentality seeps through sometimes.
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Post by montrose on Feb 24, 2012 9:40:40 GMT -6
Reno's patrol. I think Reno's patrol is badly understood.
Situation. MAJ Reno led the movement (charge or retreat at your preference) to the river and up the bluffs. As such, he had no personal knowledge most of the wreckage behind him, including Hodgson's death. He lost a third of his command, but it was quite possible that some of the personnel who had not made it up the bluffs were still alive.
It made sense to send a patrol back down to the river to look for survivors.
One of the privates who went on this patrol thought the purpose was to go to the river to get water. The patrol refilled their own canteens, but it is unclear that they brought extra canteens/containers for the rest of the command on the ridge.
The patrol encountered LT Hodgson's body. This encounter caused Reno to slide into poor judgment. He got over emotional and when he returned to the command was far too focused on getting a burial party together, when he had far more important functions of command to execute.
The patrol only recovered a single soldier. The amusing part of this is this was most likely the fabricator Golden. History would have been far better served if they had missed him in the brush.
I do not believe that the purpose of the patrol was Hodgson. If so, it is a sign of gross incompetence on the part of Reno and every officer and NCO on the hill. Conducting combat reconsolidation was the imperative task for a unit that had taken one third losses.
It is very evident that the command did reorganize and reattained tactical ability to continue the fight. The companies reorganized their surviving members, ammo was redistributed, skirmish lines were formed, an aid station was created for the wounded.
For me, Reno's patrol was a sound decision. It was led by the commander. He task organized a combat patrol, and led it back to the river crossing (which was past the LTs's body). It was the right thing to do once the ridge position got organized. It was imperative to check for survivors before moving north.
Sequencing. I admit, I often look at the claims that Reno/Benteen delayed before moving north in utter confusion.
Reno had been beaten by in a fight where he was outnumbered 10-15 to one. It was a tactical imperative to consolidate combat power.
This meant the arrival of the pack train. The clock of judging whether Reno delayed starts after the pack train arrives on the hill.
So how much delay can we charge to Reno? Zero. The movement north started before the trains arrived.
So CPT Weir go to Weir point early, where he promptly sat on his butt for an hour. He still had to wait for the trains, except now the linkup point was Weir point vice Reno hill.
The problem is that Weir exposed the regiment to defeat in detail by getting so far away from the main body. Benteen's movement forward with 3 companies was to compensate for Weir's poor judgment.
Custer's decision. The main cause of the defeat was Custer's decision to move his force behind enemy lines. He moved past Ford B. This means that the main body was not following him in an advance to contact over cleared ground. The main body would have to fight and defeat the Indian main body to reach Custer.
During the time it would take for the regiment main body to arrive,Keough with 3 companies were left to face the Indians by himself.
So Custer first left Reno with 3 companies to face the Indians unsupported, and then did the same again with Keough and 3 companies.
Given that LTC Custer's estimate of enemy strength was 1500, these decisions seem remarkably reckless.
Since we talk timing a lot:
How long did Custer expect Reno to hold out unsupported. Forever. Custer up to the time of his death never did a single thing to support Reno in the valley. He must have assumed Reno could hold. It appears he was going to attack the other end of the village with 9 companies, and presumably link up with Reno after sweeping through the village.
How long was Keough expected to hold on unsupported? Until the main body with trains arrived, which is 1-2 hours. I interpret Custer's lethal pause on Cemetery ridge as occupying an assault position. He was expecting the main body to move to this position. .
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Post by shan on Feb 24, 2012 12:14:04 GMT -6
lonewulf44
Unfortunately your right, I'm pretty sure we will never know what Weir or indeed any of them saw, but I suspect that it was very little. Unlike Fred, I haven't put in time doing the ground work so I can't quote just how many men spent time in and around Weir peaks, but I think we can take it that there were a good many, and yet we have almost no first hand witness reports of what they saw if anything, so, unless your a conspiracy theorist, I think we have to take it that there was really nothing to report.
That said, there's no harm in speculating, and whilst most, if not all would go along with Fred and DC on the smoke and dust problem, I wonder if there were occasional gaps or areas where it was less thick than others. After all someone---I forget who---reported seeing mounted Indians firing at what they thought were bodies on the ground: saw enough to be able to tell the difference between mounted Indians and troopers, and given that this is generally accepted as an on the spot observation, someone did indeed see something.
But there is another possibility and this has to do with timing. Given that Weir and co were there a little while before the others arrived, could it be possible that with the bulk of the fighting already over in the Findly/Calhoun area, they saw something of the killing of one or more of the reported escapees?
Now this is a tricky area as we have to rely on two things. Firstly, several reports by various Indians who may or may not be talking about one and the same trooper or group of troopers, or, they maybe repeated well worn stories they'd previously heard. Secondly, reports of troopers bodies that were found well away from the main groupings.
To take the supposed bodies found on Luce ridge first, { I've read variously that the bones of three or four troopers and assorted horses were found somewhere along there, } and there is some good visual evidence from various Indian artists that show four men breaking out and attempting to flee south to back this up. But, and it's a big but, its also possible that these men were killed early on in the fight, and that the four escapees split early on and went separate their ways well before they got as far as Luce.
With regard to the lone escapees, we have several reports of lone troopers being run down and killed; Butler comes to mind, and one that's rarely talked about, a mounted trooper chased and killed by Low Dog possibly somewhere in upper Medicine Tail.
So, could Weir have witnessed one of these events well before the rest of the command arrived, rather than the fall of Findley ridge and the Calhoun area? And if so, was he so embarrassed that he had been powerless to intervene, that he couldn't even tell Benteen or Reno ?
Shan
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Post by quincannon on Feb 24, 2012 12:27:21 GMT -6
Shan: In regards to dust and smoke. I happened to ask Fred a week or so ago about reports of wind in the area. I live on land not unlike that of LBH and wind is our constant companion. I was following another unrelated type of inquiry, but Fred searched his resources and said there were were reports of a north wind in the valley, no speed given or recorded. On the bluffs, the Custer field it was reported to be calm with no wind. Under those conditions the smoke and dust would linger and obscure. I suspect that there was nothing to be seen from the distance of Weir Peak, possible of course, but I would rate it highly unlikely.
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