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Post by Moltke on Feb 22, 2012 15:28:13 GMT -6
Just curious for a bit more details on what consensus most hold that Weir was able to see or hear the moment he stopped at Weir Point and looked through his field glasses.
Where Custer Fell describes a pretty concise timeline as a prelude.
Around 4:00 Reno and his remaining band have begun to form on Reno Hill.
By 4;10 its concluded that most of the survivors have gathered there.
Around 4:20 is when Benteen arrives.
Statements from Lt. Eagerly indicate that as early as 4:30, Company D is and has been "standing to horse" and hearing firing including "2 distinct volley" reports.
Also around 4:20 to 30 Lt. Hare is dispatched to the pack train to finally hurry it up.
As he returns around 4:45, he sees Weir and company D heading off. At this point a volley is still heard.
Soon after Reno orders Hare to Weir with instructions to attempt communication with Custer.
Approximately 5:10 is given as when Weir hits the high ground.
Benteen and 3 comp. arrive around 5:30 (apparently again without Reno approval) Firing heard until approximately 5:35
6:30 - 7:00, Troops were stationary on this point until finally a combination of Reno's orders and Indiana movement finally converging forced them back to Reno Hill.
I'm presenting nothing new here, but I just want to find out some opinions of others to what they think concerning a few of the events and following speculations. First the big one. Approximately how many of those with Weir would have likely had field glasses? Obviously officers likely had a better view than the enlisted me, and accounts should be judged due to that. In the various statements, who was in the best position to see. Accounts differ, and I'm aware of the various disagreement among scholars of the battle. Some accounts state just dust could be seen and firing heard. Some witness indians moving, firing into the ground, mounted movements and distant sights. Other seem to state details like seeing the Indians definitely in a circle formation, (Pigford) or specifically thinking Custer was still fighting (Hare, who arrived later than even Weir).
Apparently there is evidence of Eagerly censoring letters written to his wife concerning what was first seen by him and Weir. (Presumably leading the column and both with glasses and able to see more in those crucial first minutes when arrived. )Is there any where to view these letters and are there any topics that have discussed them on these boards? Likewise, I've read that Weir wrote letters to Libby hinting at information not known to the public. What did the letters say? Where are the letters now? Can they be found online? Likewise, I don't think it can be understated the importance to the fact that Weir drank himself to death in sadness over the battle. Seems to have placed an amount of guilt on himself that no one else managed. The temptation to leap to conclusions it was due to what he say are too great to resist for me. What do others believe?
Side notes. What's the relationship of Hodgson and Reno? I realize they were close, but his actions and orders concerning him are very strange to say the least. Or at least you don't see similar actions by any of the other officers do you? His first actions are to find the body, thereby leaving command of the hill. He brings him up to various officers over the next hour. He sends burial details, and so on. All while firing is heard, Benteen arrives, Weir leaves, and the unit argues over if they should find Custer.
Sticking with Reno. Is it true that Reno first ordered scouts to seek out Terry rather than Custer? Most testified that it didn't enter their minds until finding the bodies that Custer could possibly be dead .. .but after seeing the Indians pack up and go ... seeking out Terry?
Another side question. Sergeant Ryan apparently had a 100 dollar sharps rifle with a telescopic scope that he used to clear and scatter Indian attackers during the fight. Do we know the whereabouts of this weapon?
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Post by Dark Cloud on Feb 22, 2012 16:01:12 GMT -6
lonewulf,
Define volley. Can one man fire a volley? Some said they heard volleys, others firing but not quite volleys, others just scattered shots. There was no consensus.
Lt. Hare did not see Weir and a company. Weir left with an orderly, Edgerly brought the company later.
Weir's company went further than Weir Point. Sometimes Weir is described as with them, sometimes as still on Weir Point and waving them back when he saw the swarm approach.
Someone was sure that they were all back on Reno Hill at 6PM.
It doesn't matter who had field glasses unless you know what they were looking at. Lot of action between Weir Point and LSH, and it's entirely doubtful anyone saw through the dust described as heavy by everyone and all the black powder smoke to see detail on LSH. What activity they saw would have been Calhoun Hill or closer. It's a very confusing landscape even today in good weather, and without the cemetery and the monument, I doubt anyone could distinguish much of anything.
Doubt any but a few officers had field glasses, and not good ones.
"Apparently there is evidence of Eagerly censoring letters written to his wife concerning what was first seen by him and Weir." Really. Why would that be? Why would he censor his own letters to his wife? What would evidence of this consist of?
Weir was a drunk, and he promises La Custer and La Calhoun all sorts of revelations. But he probably felt guilty, as they all did, as soldiers all do when they lose and friends die. Weir didn't perform well. He is credited with wanting to help Custer but it's just as likely he wanted in on accolades of the sure win.
Hodgson was Reno's only friend, not necessarily close, and Reno had talked him into staying in the Army as I recall. Again: guilt. Second, Hodgson was the adjutant and had stuff on him that would be best to have. Third, it's not like there were tons of options while they awaited the train, matched those without horses with new mounts and weapons, attended the wounded, and this atop shock.
There is need only to unite what they have. The mission is not Saving General Custer, nor should it have been.
They didn't know where Custer was, and Custer had to know roughly where they were. Would you send out valuable scouts at night to search? Or would you send them out to get to where they knew Terry would be? Terry had provided more info than Custer.
Don't know what happened to Ryan's weapon except he claimed to have discouraged the Sharpshooter that gave the name to Sharpshooter Ridge. Later, he credited himself with the first shot of the battle in the valley and the last, firing into the Indians leaving with French. Which was pretty stupid.
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Post by quincannon on Feb 22, 2012 16:01:41 GMT -6
LW44: I will let Fred and others speak to time lines, and specific testimony of participants. They have a much better grasp of the details.
What I will comment on is what I saw with a pair of Navy watch field glasses standing on or very near the places that these contemporary observations were made. I could see a spendid view of Battle Ridge, including FF Ridge, Calhoun Hill, the spine of the ridge itself and could also observe way in the distance the top of the monument on LSH, and the tops of the trees near the cemetery (this last to give you some perspecive of distance). Now were I honestly to say that from that vantage point I could observe a battle in progress or a mass of activity and discern just what was taking place, considering the dust and smoke that must have been present, the answer would be an emphatic no.
You ask good questions. I just wish I had equally good answers.
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walsh
Full Member
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Post by walsh on Feb 22, 2012 16:36:42 GMT -6
I think the general consensus is that a volley is when two or more armed combatants fire one shot each simultaneously on command. This would seem to be rather ineffective against the Indians as they didn't fight in a linear fashion. Firing at will would seem much more practicable.
If Weir saw dust and Indians on horse back shooting at objects on the ground, the fight must of been over for a while at that point because the Indians left their horses behind. He most likely saw the enraged Sioux firing into the already dead bodies of the 7th.
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Post by benteen on Feb 22, 2012 17:05:43 GMT -6
If Weir saw dust and Indians on horse back shooting at objects on the ground, the fight must of been over for a while at that point because the Indians left their horses behind. He most likely saw the enraged Sioux firing into the already dead bodies of the 7th. Walsh, I agree, and that is one of the factors I considered when I formed my opinion that this battle was over very quickly. Be Well Dan
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Post by quincannon on Feb 22, 2012 18:23:04 GMT -6
Walsh: Your first sentence is a near textbook definition of volley. Your second sentence is very basic, but ever so accurate. Your third sentence is right on the money.
Dan: As you know my original views on this subject was that the battle was about one and a half hours in length. Since then I have come around more in line with your views of a quick 30-45 plus or minus minutes. Based opon my observation, made above, and Walsh's second paragraph I have come to think that what was observed from the vacinity of Weir Point and environs was just what Walsh has stated. The possability exists that they were still dealing with the Custer remnants to the north, but I don't see how anyone at Weir could either see or know that, based upon the various folds in the terrain, and the aforementioned dust and smoke.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Feb 22, 2012 20:09:21 GMT -6
If there were no cemetery and no monument, those hills would meld into indistinguishable blandness, and it would be worse back then when the grass was chomped to the nub and a lot of soil exposed. It was years later in the photos. The green vista today was not there then, and without the color contrast it was brown forever most of the year.
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Post by fred on Feb 22, 2012 21:24:49 GMT -6
First things first... Define, "the battle..." Did it start at Ford B? Upon Custer's arrival there? Or when he turned to leave? From "when" to "when" are we looking for here? Next... ... what consensus most hold that Weir was able to see or hear the moment he stopped at Weir Point and looked through his field glasses. Not a lot. Based on my work-- and you know my parameters-- Tom Weir reached Weir Peaks at about 3:51 PM. At that time C Company was just beginning to enter hell. That means there was a lot of gunfire-- smoke-- at the end of a 450-500 yard gallop-- dust-- and everyone was in a ravine, out of sight from Weir Peaks. In all likelihood, all Tom Weir could see was troops and smoke on Calhoun Hill. The Luce Ridge/Nye-Cartwright complex of ridges and hills masked any activity in Deep Coulee and its attendant flats. I do not recall Where Custer Fell alluding to times... but I may be wrong... and I cannot check because I just packed away all my books. If this time was in Where Custer Fell, then the authors simply got it out of John Gray's book... and the time in sheer nonsense. In actuality, the time is more like 2:38 PM, onward, not 4. Probably closer to 3:15 or so. Unmitigated manure. A figment of W. A. Graham's imagination, Godfrey's age-rife-ennui, and John Gray's prejudices. No way; Edgerly never said any such thing... not with a time attached, he didn't. Hare was dispatched around 3:18 PM. Hare returns at 3:45 PM. The only volleys referred to by more than one person were fired around 3:07 PM, shortly after the last of Benteen's men reached the hilltop. "Soon after" being defined as 3:52 PM. Try 3:49 to 3:51. It works better. 4:14 to 4:20 PM... at the latter time, Benteen is standing side-by-side with his spunky captain. Define "firing." Battle "firing"; killing "firing"; hoopla "firing"? Wow! Depending on who you might want to believe... John Gray or the guys who were there... 5:30 arrivals back on Reno Hill seem a lot more accurate. Benteen. Benteen. Go by the accounts... especially those at the RCOI. The firing into the ground is accurate, but it had to have been in the Calhoun Hill/Finley-Finckle Ridge venue. With all that riding around business, the dust was monumental. You go there today and the grass is green and lush. In 1876, the place was semi-desert; rock-strewn, brambles, sagebrush. Time, farming down below, erosion, wind and rain... have all taken their toll over the years. Terrain changes. Pigford... one of my "favorites." First of all, Pigford didn't open his yap until some 30+ years after the battle. Second, he claimed to have been shot in the hips during the retreat from the timber which means ol' Piggy went nowhere other than a blanket. Third, he claimed Tom French-- you know, the captain, with whom I am just dandy-well sure ol' Piggy was on a personal basis with... that's how he got all this good poop-- went to the highest point to view what he could. And the circle-jerk was supposedly told by French. Or not... seems French inconveniently died 30 years earlier. Anyway, Piggy-- being the only one French "trusted"-- grabbed two others-- whose names Piggy conveniently (this time) forgot-- and on French's orders rode forward to the Calhoun Hill vicinity (they probably met Curley there and shared his red blanket... I'm wondering if this was before or after the rescue of the Indian maiden...) where they watched the final butchering of Calhoun's command. Pigford actually had the temerity to tell this bit of fantasia to the Washington Observer a couple of months before Piggy re-joined Calhoun and his merry band in Never-Never Land... October 1932 to be precise. So... how much of former private Edward D. Pigford do we want to believe? Oink!To give you a decent, civil answer to a decent, civil question, others saw Indians shooting at the ground and assumed they were killing Custer's wounded. Huh?! No one knows... and if Weir ever did write any letters, they have disappeared. You can bet your sweet butt that if Weir wrote anything incriminating and sent the letters to Libbie Custer, we would have heard about it. Forget the "sadness" business, my friend. Weir was a lush; the stuff tasted good. He didn't need any emotion to bring him to the bottle. There is absolutely no definitive proof of any arguments. The only person (people?) to have ever claimed anything like that were not in a position to have heard any bickering. D Company's PVT Fox is an example. D Company was forward and on a skirmish line that Benteen had thrown out. Fox claimed Weir argued with Reno and Benteen overheard it. Benteen denied that claim; Reno denied it; and Weir denied it. How could Fox have heard anything of the sort? Everyone believed Custer had either been repulsed or made his way back to Terry. If you have a good idea where one guy is, but no real idea where Joe # 2 is, where do you direct the messenger? Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Feb 22, 2012 21:39:45 GMT -6
What did you do, Dan, pull that down?
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by benteen on Feb 22, 2012 21:57:42 GMT -6
LOL..Yes Captain, I hadn't seen your post and I was using the times from "Where Custer Fell" When I saw your timetable and it was completely different I figured let my post not contradict with someone who has done their own research and knows what they are talking about. Ill post it again sometime. But I will leave exact times out, just the times between actions Be Well Dan
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Post by Moltke on Feb 23, 2012 8:09:22 GMT -6
... What I will comment on is what I saw with a pair of Navy watch field glasses standing on or very near the places that these contemporary observations were made. I could see a spendid view of Battle Ridge, including FF Ridge, Calhoun Hill, the spine of the ridge itself and could also observe way in the distance the top of the monument on LSH, and the tops of the trees near the cemetery (this last to give you some perspecive of distance). Now were I honestly to say that from that vantage point I could observe a battle in progress or a mass of activity and discern just what was taking place, considering the dust and smoke that must have been present, the answer would be an emphatic no. You ask good questions. I just wish I had equally good answers. Sounds like a good answer to me. This corresponds to a lot of the photos I've seen. When I was at the park I don't remember even making an attempt to look from Weir point. At that range though it seems like they must have seen warriors and dead of Calhoun Hill. Hope to make some similar observations this summer if I make it out there again. Hodgson was Reno's only friend, not necessarily close, and Reno had talked him into staying in the Army as I recall. Again: guilt. Second, Hodgson was the adjutant and had stuff on him that would be best to have. Third, it's not like there were tons of options while they awaited the train, matched those without horses with new mounts and weapons, attended the wounded, and this atop shock. I see. I still find it odd that he would leave for what 20-25 minutes and head back down for the search but I suppose guilt and shock could motivate anything. That fact that Reno himself and a small band could make it all the way to the river and back seems to tell quite a lot about just how much of the Indian forces pulled out to fight Custer. There is need only to unite what they have. The mission is not Saving General Custer, nor should it have been. I readily agree with that, although after Benteen arrives it seems that there would have more effort to at least send some kind of mounted force out to ascertain some information about the fighting obviously going on. Whatever someones thoughts are on Benteen's speed up to and after catching Reno, it seems like the camp was at least in well enough shape from lessened enemy pressure and reinforcements to mount some kind of foray. Weir leaves, followed by his company, followed by Benteen, followed somewhat by Reno before all turn back. What ultimately motivates everyone to move after Weir? Benteen for instance? Neither he or Reno seemed to think priorities outside of establishing themselves on Reno Hill were worth making until Weir moves out. They didn't know where Custer was, and Custer had to know roughly where they were. Would you send out valuable scouts at night to search? Or would you send them out to get to where they knew Terry would be? Terry had provided more info than Custer. I see. I guess my assumptions were that the messengers were sent out in day light after the Indians were seen leaving en masse . At this point the statements all seemed to indicate that there was no thought that Custer could possibly have been destroyed. If that was the case, after seeing that the village had dispersed and that the pressure was basically lifted to send something north? To me, sending a message to Terry just indicated that there was some belief that something terrible had happened. It seems apparent that besides dust , someone or someones witnessed warriors shooting at likely dead soldiers on the ground around Weir point. So they must have begun to at least ask themselves some hard questions. Don't know what happened to Ryan's weapon except he claimed to have discouraged the Sharpshooter that gave the name to Sharpshooter Ridge. Later, he credited himself with the first shot of the battle in the valley and the last, firing into the Indians leaving with French. Which was pretty stupid. Sigh ... likely another fantastic piece of history that probably is lost in some attic somewhere or was sold by some idiot great-grandson on Pawn Stars for money to buy more weed.
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Post by quincannon on Feb 23, 2012 9:13:03 GMT -6
LW44: Dark Cloud and Fred have more than adequately covered both the Hodgson and who to send the message to affairs. To what they said I would add though:
Hodgeson was the adjutant for Reno. Covered ground. What he might have had on his person though that would have such an immediate value as to risk more lives to retrieve it escapes me. I am obliged to come down on DC's side here and conclude that it was more guilt than anything else.
The message: What was Reno most in need of? Logistics. Who had the logistics support necessary? Terry. So in addition to who knew who was where, there was a practical aspect to it.
A month or so ago, before you arrived I commented on a thread about verbage used by Captain Bell in his report on where bodies were found. In brief I said that if one had no knowledge whatsoever, and was approaching the battle site for the first time on 27 June from the south, one could conclude that the main battle took place on FF Ridge and in the vacinity of Calhoun Hill. The remains found near the cemetery and LSH you could equally conclude were person and/ot units that had retreated from the former location and were run down during the course of the retreat.
What was seen from Weir Point, including the firing and the possability of seeing the bodies of friendly KIA's would only indicate a battle taking or having taken place there. It is not necessarily an indication of catistrophic occurance. Therefore it would I believe be an imperfect view from which no definative conclusions could be drawn at that stage of the game. I agree with the many who assume that Reno/Benteen thought Custer had engaged and had drawn off to the north or east.
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Post by clw on Feb 23, 2012 9:24:22 GMT -6
That fact that Reno himself and a small band could make it all the way to the river and back seems to tell quite a lot about just how much of the Indian forces pulled out to fight Custer. Has anyone besides me ever wondered why no one on that trip brought back water? Or why during that lull nothing was done about acquiring water at all?
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Post by quincannon on Feb 23, 2012 9:36:20 GMT -6
clw: You also ask very good questions. There is nothing that says to my knowledge that anyone thought about water at the time or attempted to obtain any. On the other hand there is nothing that says they did not either. I would think at this stage, pre-resumation of combat checks were being made at the company level. I would further assume (cannot know of course) that checking for water on the part of company officers and NCO's would be part of that process. If anyone went for water, it might not have been recorded or recalled, but I certainly don't rule such action out. When they sent those men to the river later, it was a combined command effort and one I would think that would find itself inserted in the narrative more readily.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Feb 23, 2012 9:51:09 GMT -6
I'm not aware that any decision about where they were going to plant themselves had been made until they got to Weir Point, where the decision was an immediate 'not here, back there.' I don't think it correct to assume that Reno and Benteen had decided to dig in at all, much less there when they met up. They were not setting up camp.
Again: there were men without horses, probably horses around needing to be caught and returned before the Indians got them, and there were men without any weapons, mounts, or clue that needed to be reintegrated. We don't know what percentage of Reno's men were still cavalry, nor how many were as blown as their horses.
My observation is that Weir was off the command structure and in violation of numerous regulations as he had been all day. What was correct in procedure after he rode north was not necessarily what was appropriate. What I greatly admire about Benteen is that he didn't cave to emotion and argue with Reno or Weir, but kept the structure intact and brought Weir in as a functioning gear again. That is my impression - I have no evidence - of what command presence is. Benteen obviously had it, Reno and others did not.
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