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Post by AZ Ranger on Apr 9, 2011 7:44:21 GMT -6
Not to the Indians that were there.
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Post by wild on Apr 10, 2011 2:32:21 GMT -6
There are a number of misconceptions which have dominated our theories of the progress of the battle. One of them is the unquestioning acceptance of the numbers facing Reno. These estimates are so large that they are taken to be the main body of hostiles and that while they are engaged by Reno Custer is free to maneuver as he pleases I suggest that these first responders numbered as few as 300.I state this for the following reasons.Larger numbers would have inflicted greater casualties on Reno.They would have prevented the orderly withdrawal to the timber and most importantly they would have engaged with Benteen. But the consensus has the Indians withdrawing on the arrival of Benteen because they perceive Custer to be the greater threat.This give the Indians a tactical awareness and a leadership which they just do not have. If the Indian main force is routing Reno why stop there why not attack Benteen?What knowledge has Reno's Indians got of Custer that would trigger a sudden disengagement? The consenSus explanation is complex.A simple explanation is that Reno never faced anything remotely resembling the Indian main force.Instead it was the local defence force who saw him off but who were not in sufficent strenght to attack Benteen.Reno's Indians acted as came natural to them in such 50/50 situations they ran. Meanwhile Custer was aproaching the "empty village"and the Indian main force. This force,this dynamic will put Custer on the defensive,cut his lines of communication and force him Northward up onto Battle ridge and LSH
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Post by fred on Apr 10, 2011 4:46:16 GMT -6
And I think it was probably a lot lower than that... maybe as few as 50. The problem was that it kept growing. And the larger numbers-- initially and as they grew-- were primarily on foot. It wasn't until more horses were retrieved that the danger became imminent, because by then, many of the warriors had finished preparing themselves for battle. Crazy Horse was a notorious example of a late-arrival, simply because he spent an inordinate amount of time preening his patoot for the up-river fracas. And he wasn't unusual. Examples of this sort of pre-battle preparation are all through Indian accounts of various battles.
As for casualties, they were meaningless. In all likelihood there was so much dust being raised, the Indians kept at a distance, and then as things progressed it became more and more difficult to see because of the smoke. These battles-- certainly early on-- were a lesson in futility. Gerard and Herendeen said their shots fell some 800 or 900 yards away and the Indians were beyond that-- and "retreating." The Rosebud battle took more than six hours, the troops were, at times, in dire straits... and what were the casualties? Minimal... on both sides. The Indians quit the field because they were tired and hungry. Say what?!
The larger numbers of Indians only began joining the Reno fray after 15, 20, minutes, otherwise the troops-- on foot-- could never have reached the areas they did. The 900 reported by Benteen, the 600 to 800 reported by someone else, and the 800 - 1000 reported by a third eye-witness were milling around there after Benteen's arrival.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by bc on Apr 10, 2011 13:46:10 GMT -6
Wild, I don't doubt the numbers mentioned by Benteen as he had a lot of experience around NAs camps over the years. There were plenty of times after 67 when the NAs camped peaceably around forts to pick up their treaty goods.
As Fred said it did take time for them to assemble and to move all the way around to flank the soldiers from the south causing them to move to the timber.
Besides, Pickett was NOT leading the NAs. They don't commit all their warriors in any action. Most tend to lag back out of range and they take turns making bravery runs to and through soldier positions. They wear the enemy down, draw their fire, and make them use up their ammo, before they strike in any force.
bc
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Post by wild on Apr 10, 2011 15:57:13 GMT -6
bc The Indians are routing Reno over the river.The fact that they cease this activity means one of two things. 1 They are tactically aware that Custer is a greater threat than Benteen who will in fact not counter attack. 2 They the Indians are not in sufficent numbers to face Benteen.
As the Indians have nothing resembling command and control and are reactive rather than proactive I'm suggesting their retreat was triggered by Benteen and lack of numbers rather than any tactical sophistication coming into play.
As regards Benteen's recolection of Indian numbers he was hardly an unbiased witness?
If "we" place the main body of Indians in the village then Custer beyond Weir Point is a whole different ball game.
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Post by bc on Apr 10, 2011 21:09:14 GMT -6
bc As the Indians have nothing resembling command and control and are reactive rather than proactive I'm suggesting their retreat was triggered by Benteen and lack of numbers rather than any tactical sophistication coming into play. Something I've never thought of. Between Benteen's 120 men and about the same for the pack train they also saw coming, that's about triple the size of Reno's original force. Some of the various NA accounts say they left when they saw or heard of Custer. But there are others that saw Benteen and others saw the pack train but they don't really say why they left Reno. Reno's remains/carcass would have been easy pickens for even the buzzards up on the hill. I suppose some were scared off by Benteen and McDougal. bc
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