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Post by bc on Apr 7, 2011 9:06:48 GMT -6
Fred, I might suggest if there is a duplicate posting problem again to delete the first post and not the second as the second one seems to be the one that takes.
I'd also disagree with the term "rounding up" of the non coms. Round up is when the fighting is over. However being in their vicinity so you can threaten them and use them to your advantage such as keeping them as a shield/in a cross fire from a large group of warriors on the other side would be to your advantage. Besides I think the noncoms had enough camp guards, old men, and young boys who could still fire a gun or use a bow and arrow that they could keep a company or two at bay for a while assuming said company(s) weren't intent on charging through. However a blocking force or a force trying to draw warriors away from Calhoun Hill would not want to charge into the noncoms. By then, I think the warriors were too committed on Calhoun Hill to disengage and go help the noncoms cause the ford D troops to disengage themselves.
bc
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Post by fred on Apr 7, 2011 9:27:13 GMT -6
BC,
I will try your idea; I have been deleting the second, but I will delete the first from now on. Fortunately, I have not lost any of my long-winded, bloviatory posts. Or maybe that should read, "Unfortunately."
My little stuff shows Custer arriving at Ford D before Keogh and Harrington agreed to send C Company into Calhoun Coulee. That means while the pressure was mounting there was still no immediate threat.
As for Custer's "plans" once he G-2ed the Ford D area, I have no idea, but I suspect things coalesced into some sort of decision, especially since he had, in all likelihood, laid the foundation for some sort of plan while with Keogh and Yates atop Calhoun Hill. Again, there were enough warriors at D to make any foray there something other than a "round-up." And I do not believe George Custer was in the round-up business. Remember too, he was not above taking hostages and using them for whatever purpose he needed to.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by wild on Apr 7, 2011 11:02:28 GMT -6
Corbin Ya think? Custer didn't seem to think so, did he? Big Village was used by him to describe just that - what you are describing in #3 If you attack one big village you need not hold back units in reserve.You can throw everything into the attack. If you attack one village of a number of villages you must cover the possibility of a counter attack by holding back units in reserve.
Fred No one-- least of all, me-- has suggested a "round-up" of women, children, and old folk Apologies.I thought that's what you ment by "going after the noncombatants.I had no idea that our hero would actually target families for destruction? Destruction of families, along with these additional warriors, looms as a prime objective to me. That threat-- reaching warriors fighting Reno-- could easily break the back of the resistance.This raises issues of morality and execution.Do we want to go there?
As for Terry, do you honestly believe Terry, stumbling upon a victorious Custer, could care? I think that until proven otherwise we should allow our heros the same standard of humanity as we ourselves profess.
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Post by fred on Apr 7, 2011 12:24:29 GMT -6
I had no idea that our hero would actually target families for destruction? Why not? Washita... deserters... No. I do not disagree really, it's just that I think 19th century standards were different. I am also rather cynical when it comes to American morality mores and I think it took something like Bataan and the first extermination camp discovery before we understood fully the meaning of genocide. My Lai demonstrated that the meaning of it wasn't quite clear throughout the country. Why would George Custer have been any different from the assassin, murderer, jewelry store purveyor, William Calley? Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by wild on Apr 7, 2011 14:52:16 GMT -6
Why not? Washita... deserters... Because to bring about the situation in which families are destroyed Custer must specifically order the killing of the women and children.
Why would George Custer have been any different from the assassin, murderer, jewelry store purveyor, William Calley? Based on the law of averages and the size of the peacetime officer corps your opinion has about a 1 in 1000 chance of being correct.
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Post by corbin on Apr 7, 2011 21:32:20 GMT -6
Almost everyone seems to think Goldin was a buffoon, but there seems to be something that rings true, especially his ride/message back to Reno. And while it is unknown whether Goldin actually carried the message from Custer to Reno, my argument in regards to the theory I first proposed supported the circumstances for such a proposal. Was Goldin's story about his ride plausible? I think so. It certainly supports the theory I proposed and the set of circumstances as they existed at the time, and I think it makes not just sense of Goldin's ride but helps to explain and support Martin's and Kanipe's equally as well. It certainly would have made sense for Custer to do this upon discovery of the Big Village especially if he was expecting something different. Did it happen this way? I have no idea, but I put it out there as a possible explanation that seems to fit the need for each of those couriers and from what is known of those messages, I think it fits rather well, certainly better than what has been bantered about for years without closure to the nomenclature misuse abuse we seem not to understand today. Is that important? I feel it is, especially if Custer, h'll by appearances the whole regiment was victims of their own words.
What is disconcerting to me is to see historical people senselessly degraded by our own words of theoretical misunderstanding. If what I proposed is so wrong, then why does it seem to support what each and every courier said they did that day? Seems to me it would be better to explore this possibility to honor their service if it happened this way, than go around making blanket assertions that cast aspersions to diversions and cast blame upon them by calling them liars and other unkind words. I feel these soldiers deserve a whole lot better than exploring their negatives and not ever look for their positives. For me, history is far more interesting if enlightenment comes from any source, especially if its true, and we wont know that until we try without bias and bigotry to understand it better than what has gone on before.
I've heard it all before, and so have you. It wasn't reasonable or even responsible for Custer to divide his command until such time as he knew for certain what was ahead of him. And then everything but the kitchen sink is thrown in to support various petty theories and assertions until eventually the thread ends the way this one was supposed to, in a stalemate. We then get the 3411's (no offense intended Fred), Weir Peak and god knows how many more scenic view pull off's Custer was supposed to have stopped at to view it all. And quite evidently, by that time it was already to late to do anything about it, for whatever reason, we don't fathom.
The vital and important questions were not asked, nor even considered, and never are, not even in anyone or everyone's own mind. Perhaps Wild came the closest, and it too was ignored.
1) Does this theory address the division of Custer's forces? 2) Does this theory address Reno's orders? Benteen's orders? Pack Train orders? 3) Does this theory address terrain limitations, such as what Custer didn't see/didn't know? 4) Does this theory address Custer's plans (on the fly or not)? And the possible errors we perceive?
Was the truth hushed? Or was it really much more simple and less complex? Was it that Custer didn't know that the Big Village (he repeats over and over in Martin's and Kanipe's messages) was there until he arrived at his scenic overlook? And by this time he had sent off, in anticipation of finding something different, both Benteen and Reno's Battalions - and that was the reason, as stated time and time again, over and over, without understanding, "Come on, Big Village, be quick" in that exact order.
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Post by fred on Apr 7, 2011 21:44:05 GMT -6
Because to bring about the situation in which families are destroyed Custer must specifically order the killing of the women and children. Wild, I do not believe that to be the case (above). Quite frankly, I think that was a given in those times. Killing Indian women and children was hardly new. The officer corps comprised only 2.86 percent of the German army’s total strength at the beginning of WWII and declined in relative strength as the war raged. In contrast, officers represented seven percent of the overall strength of the American army... and grew to fifteen percent of the army during the Vietnam War. At the peak we had approximately 565,000 men in Vietnam. That would be about 84,750 officers, or-- based on 1 in 1,000-- about 84 incidents. I can personally vouch for one of those as told to me by someone directly involved. It never made the papers. I think-- as well-- we have had more than just a couple similar situations within the past several years. I might also add that we did not seem to have much compunction about Dresden and Hamburg. Hiroshima and Nagasaki also come to mind. Not that I am outraged at any of those places-- except maybe Dresden-- but it points out that we tend to set our scruples aside at times, especially when no one is looking. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Apr 7, 2011 21:45:36 GMT -6
I don't consider Goldin a buffoon... just a liar. He does not figure in very much that I do.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by bc on Apr 7, 2011 22:11:31 GMT -6
I think Custer and Reno knew well where the main village was. From the view at the Crow's nest and then reports from all the scouts, Hare, Varnum, Girard, and so on.
Further evidence is Ford A which is situated in the middle of a broad expanse of the river valley. To the right behind some river loops lay the village which they could not see from the ford. To the left was an open expanse of valley that you can only see so far before the river loops west and back south behind some bluffs. From Ford A you would have no idea where the village was absent some fleeing NAs and prior intel. Yet Reno crossed, formed his lines, and charged north without even giving a thought to what might be behind the bend in the river to the south. He didn't worry about the south then nor did he or any other officer ever make mention at the RCOI or in any writings of being worried about NAs being around that bend on the south that could come up on his rear. Without any prior intel, any good officer would be sending scouts to the south from the ford to see what is there. I think it was well settled that they new the village was to the north before Reno was sent on the attack.
bc
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Post by bc on Apr 7, 2011 22:30:14 GMT -6
Corbin, I don't see your connection with Goldin and how that explains and supports Kanipe's and Martini's messages. Could you please elucidate that for me a little? Thanks. Also what is your position on his departure point?
Are you saying that it was Custer's plan at the time and communicated through Goldin that Custer was going to hit the flank and they would join up somewhere in the village? If so, then I'd agree that was probably his plan at the time but later changed when they got around MTC. I have Custer first viewing the south end of the vill at Mathey's knoll, more at Reno Hill, and more yet at 3411. I think by 3411 he knew the full extent of the village. Probably later verified from Weir Point and Bouyer's bluff.
All Goldin's message would do in my mind is make it clear that Reno may have disobeyed a direct written order. Something he wouldn't want known. However I'm not into the blame game so I don't care if he had an order to link up or not. Fact of the matter is he lost his head and charged/retreated up the bluffs. That still doesn't change what I think of Reno or Custer (much anyway).
bc
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Post by corbin on Apr 8, 2011 4:48:20 GMT -6
I think Custer and Reno knew well where the main village was. From the view at the Crow's nest and then reports from all the scouts, Hare, Varnum, Girard, and so on.
There was one man who said he didn't believe what his scouts told him. Fred Benteen. In fact, from Benteen's own words at the COI, Custer didn't believe there were any Indians there at all. This just after he had came back from the Crows Nest, so no, Custer's own Crows Nest observations, nor for that matter the Scouts who were there, could see enough to make even the basic conclusion that they were there. Been there, and it is very difficult to ascertain anything anywhere near where that village was supposed to have been because of those blasted bluffs (Reno Hill-Sharpshooter-Weir Peak) laying directly between and obscuring any chance at detecting any part of that village just beyond. You'd need x-ray vision on neutrino steroids to come even close, and while Custer was a hero to some, I don't think he was a Mermaid Man-Barnicle Boy kind of person who could do that sort of thing.
And you'd have to dig up what -Hare, Varnum and Girard, and so on- had to say about any village, let alone a big one while on their scouts down Reno Creek. If my recollection doesn't fail me, Varnum said he saw quote, "Indians" from his position on the trek down Reno Creek, but fails to make even the slightest notation of seeing a village. Been there, done that to. The only hint, the only one that I have ever found that even remotely suggested that there was a village there was Girards, and that was when he was a hoot'n and a holler'n from his knoll and he didn't say anything at the time about it being a big one.
The first time and only times anyone ever reference it to being a Big Village was Custer, and those messages back to their respective recipients, Benteen and McDougall, and he, Custer supposedly sent it back from some lofty perch somewhere only God knows. (Yeah I know, I'll get my shirt sprayed with skunk juice for saying that last phrase, just consider the source, and in this case if it smells like it, it most definitely is.)
Further evidence is Ford A which is situated in the middle of a broad expanse of the river valley. To the right behind some river loops lay the village which they could not see from the ford. To the left was an open expanse of valley that you can only see so far before the river loops west and back south behind some bluffs. From Ford A you would have no idea where the village was absent some fleeing NAs and prior intel. Yet Reno crossed, formed his lines, and charged north without even giving a thought to what might be behind the bend in the river to the south. He didn't worry about the south then nor did he or any other officer ever make mention at the RCOI or in any writings of being worried about NAs being around that bend on the south that could come up on his rear. Without any prior intel, any good officer would be sending scouts to the south from the ford to see what is there. I think it was well settled that they new the village was to the north before Reno was sent on the attack.
From Ford A you would have no idea where the village was absent some fleeing NAs and prior intel.
Correctamundo, give that man a cigar for hitting every fact with tact. And Major Reno was called forward by Custer because? No suspense here, surely every student, so called self taught scholar, or for that matter goat herder knows this one. He called Reno forward because the Indian scouts wouldn't immediately take chase of the fleeing NA's that both Hare and Girard had spotted from their little old knolls, so yeah, like it or not, Reno was charged with taking up the chase of those fleeing Na's Custer seemed to think were so important to take task with. (Oh I know, lets not give credit here where credit is due, surely some honest injun was better at standing on wooden legs than telling or for that matter recognizing what it was Custer was doing or saying at that time. They weren't being called women by him, surely they weren't were they? A warrior being called a woman? Ummm... ya think they wouldn't remember this and why?) As for the "prior intel", Girard seemed to have a lot to say that morning, didn't he? Not only the reported first sighting of any village, but the supposed sighting of the thousands coming out to meet and greet Reno. Girard had some 30 odd years of experience in Indian country, but he acted like a 3 year old when it came to sounding the pre-school lunch bell. Yet through all of this dust and fuss, Custer did do something that would have been totally uncharacteristic of him or any other commander, if he knew or had any preconceptions of knowing that they was a Big Village... Why bother with 40 or 50 and waste the chase, men and resources again on 50 when there could have been 5,000 just around the corner? Know? H'll no he, Custer, didn't know, or he wouldn't have sent Reno after those 40 - 50 some odd "decoys" when around the bend there were at least 10 times that number.
bc, I'll have to get back to you on your other questions. Time just doesn't permit me to do it at this time...
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Post by AZ Ranger on Apr 8, 2011 7:31:31 GMT -6
There was one man who said he didn't believe what his scouts told him. Fred Benteen. In fact, from Benteen's own words at the COI, Custer didn't believe there were any Indians there at all.
Hello Corbin
I think a closer read of Benteen at RCOI will show that "at all" is not in the text. The scouts were looking and describing a location and Custer according to Benteen's testimony could not see what they saw "there".
To me that is a big difference (leaving out the at all) and explains sending Benteen to the left. I read that as Custer still believed they were "there" toward the LBH just wasn't convinced of the exact location in the "there" used by the scouts.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by bc on Apr 8, 2011 9:15:33 GMT -6
Don't forget here also that Custer was following a very large lodgepole trail down Reno Creek which then turned north around the lone tepee. No mystery here. At times they moved over to avoid raising dust. He probably didn't know which way the trail was going to turn, either north or south, till he got close to the lone tepee and see it didn't go south.
At the Crow's nest, I think Custer just doubted whether "all" the NAs were where the pony herds were being sighted. From the Crow's Nest there is no good view of the river to the south to check for villages nor any of the ravines/coulees in that direction. They previously had seen where lodgepole trails moved to the south to/from the Rosebud so Custer had to be concerned about something to the south. Hence Benteen got his mission to ride on the oblique and check the ridges until satisfied no NAs would end up being in their rear.
bc
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Post by wild on Apr 8, 2011 11:27:24 GMT -6
Hi Fred, We have Custer headed Northwards to attack the noncombatants who should be exiting the village also in a Northward direction. Custer is supremly confident and filled with contempt for his foe.Reno is jettisoned without a backward glance because our hero has the morals/humanity of a William Calley. OK? Now let's take a look at the objective of Custer's jaunt. The noncombatants are not a military target they are a physoclogical target. The slaughter of the women and children will not diminish the fighting capacity of the enemy one whit. It leaves the outcome of the battle up to the Indians. As a threat it is useless because there is no one leader of the Indians to call for a surrender.If we can have Custer full of contempt we can have the Indians full of pride.Which tribe will call a halt? That the main strike force of the 7th ,Custer' 5 troops can be marched away from it's support and reserve,leaving 3 other troops fighting for survival in order to pull off a very dubious asymmetrical stunt is to be very charitable colourful.
The problem we have with Custer beyond Weir Point is that we give him too much time.Time means that we must find something for him to do.Reduce the time and the reason for Chuster achieving zilch and the lack of a defence on Battle Ridge is understandable.
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tel
New Member
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Post by tel on Apr 8, 2011 22:47:13 GMT -6
Thought that a key to unlocking one of the mysteries of the LBH was found. But when 5 people, 3 of them combat Officers say(In a gentlemanly way) that the key is bent and doesn't unlock anything ,well time for the white feather. Back to the drawing board. Thanks all for taking the time to respond. Badbob if it is any consolation I thought the idea had merit. But then again if I bought a cemetery people would stop dying <G> Be Well Dan I am with William on this. Interesting theory. Nothing to hang your head about. This forum for all of it's pundits is mostly conjecture. A very close friend of mine who teaches tactics at West Point once told me (in regards to the LBH) "None of us were with Custer when his command was wiped so it is all conjecture."
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