Ryan
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Post by Ryan on Sept 13, 2009 21:04:17 GMT -6
I am very intrigued by Mike Donahue's latest book, "Drawing Battle Lines." In it, Donahue asserts that some of Custer's forces (probably E Company) occupied Cemetery Ridge. For those of you not familiar with the book, I'd be happy to provide specific passages and maps which he refers to to draw this conclusion. But the most interesting facet of this assertion is that men occupied Cemetery Ridge (Big Beaver specifically describes men in the vicinity of the Cemetery) until the final moments of the battle; when fighting on Custer Hill subsided (however brief in duration), Donahue suggests that troopers on Cemetery Ridge ran for the Deep Ravine. Thus, E Company was not on Custer Hill, but remained on Cemetery Ridge. It was from the latter position that 15-20 men ran for the Deep Ravine, along with survivors from Custer Hill.
This assertion deviates from previous theories, specifically Fox's Archaeological Perspectives, which alludes to the possibility of a Cemetery Ridge origin, but by and large concludes that the SSL markers represent men fleeing from Custer Hill.
Nevertheless, I am beginning to think that at least a portion of Custer's men did remain on Cemetery Ridge even when fighting on Custer Hill occurred; SSL markers are closer to CR than Custer Hill, after all. And, it is a hard pill to swallow (at least in my book) that E Company went to Custer Hill on foot (having already lost their horses to the suicide warriors), only to run back down the hill towards the ravine at some point early on in the episode. Plus, I think the disorganization on Custer Hill (separate argument) would have precluded an organized deployment, specifically a movement distinguished by company, towards the river. Had E Company gone to Custer Hill, more E Company dead would certainly have been found in that area. Only Lt. Smith was identified on the hill, near the other officers/hq, closer to the crest/upper slope of the hill. Similarly, more men outside of E Company would have been identified in the gulch than the historical record suggests, had E Company been on Custer Hill with members of other units (lots of RCOI testimonies point directly to E Company men in the gully).
Any thoughts? There isn't a whole lot of archaeology to back this possibility up, and the Indian accounts generically describe men leaving "the hill" when describing men going to the Deep Ravine. Perhaps the "hill" is a simplification of Cemetery Ridge and Custer Hill? How might you distinguish one hill from another, without modern additions such as the cemetery and monument? Most accounts only say "hill," although some specifically mention "monument" or "cemetery" as a point of reference. Finally, however, there is the question of lack of markers on Cemetery Ridge. Not that there couldn't have been wooden markers there at some point, but old photographs from 77-79 do not reveal them, if they ever did exist at all.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Sept 14, 2009 9:34:50 GMT -6
The cemetery is decidedly lower than LSH, which touches upon exactly what people were talking about in the past when they used terms like 'the hill.' Would suspect any references would be to the monument area, which only appears a hill from lower elevations, a ridge otherwise. This is what compels people to insist that the monument graded a much higher point down, but that's based on confusion with Weir Point's elevation loss to the road, a reasonable suspect.
There is the issue of where the Co. E. officers were found, what the point would be of occupying the cemetery area with one company or at all, and whether Big Beaver said he himself saw soldiers there or he's telling a common wisdom. Gall intimated the same thing through the lousy translator at the ten year reunion and a photographer placed infantry there, firing at LSH, for a photo or two.
Having already flensed off sections of the regiment to no clear point with Benteen, the train, and Reno, are we to believe that Custer further divided his five companies when the entire regiment was probably sufficient for either static defense or offense? Would any cavalry officer willingly go to a defensive posture allowing mounts and mens to rather unavoidably be hit and precluding a return to the offense?
I find all the attempts to postulate Custer on the offensive rather weak, and suspect it was a running fight to the top of the hill where they were unpleasantly surprised by unsuspected warriors on the other side.
All evidence of cavalry at cemetery or by the northern 'fords', or in the village, can be lain at the feet of the cross-dressing warriors on army mounts and wearing soldier uniforms. Fooled Weir, their own people, and Terry's guys the next day. It would explain artifacts, sightings passed around the camp but never clarified by those who knew, and some supposed soldier positions elsewhere. Doesn't mean it's true, but we know that happened on the exact areas other theories require cavalry to be, so they have to be excluded or explained away.
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Post by clw on Sept 14, 2009 10:13:36 GMT -6
The cross dressers fooled Gibon's column too on the 26th. But I just don't think they were as ubiquitous as you do.
If you consider a reverse flow of the battle -- a probe at Ford D first and the command being cut up piece meal trying to withdraw, the occupation of Cemetary Ridge works. I dunno.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Sept 14, 2009 10:36:02 GMT -6
Terry's guys would include Gibbons'. The cross-dressers don't have to be ubiquitous, just seen and thought soldiers. The story spread, got partially corrected.
What exactly would be the point of sending a company or two or three to a northern ford? To get the civvies? That near a huge camp? Just keep dividing an already inferior command in the face of a hugely numerically superior enemy?
Why not send a couple of messengers to Benteen and Reno to tell them what's happening and taking all five companies if it was worth doing? Why leave Keogh far away? I cannot believe anyone in the 7th thought stopping when in contact with the enemy was a good pro-active decision, much less dismounting with no cover and planning on mounting under fire. A mountless man was dead. A manless mount was theirs if it survived. Once stopped under fire with no protection, cavalry is dead.
Isn't it most logical theory that they were pressured north, perhaps deposited a platoon or two for delaying action, the pressure did not cease and then they reached the summit and the officers on their faster mounts were shot there? It explains everything without a Custer unknown to history, or a Custer desperately on perpetual offensive after common sense precluded it with the numbers at his command vs. the numbers against him.
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Post by clw on Sept 14, 2009 11:16:47 GMT -6
I missed that you mentioned Terry. Sorry.
As to the rest, nevermind. Not my theory anyway, but one that makes some sense to me.
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Post by George Mabry on Sept 14, 2009 13:49:43 GMT -6
I have no doubt that Custer’s people occupied Cemetery ridge for a while.
Most of us would agree that for a time, all five of Custer’s companies were together in the Calhoun ridge vicinity. From that location Custer had a pretty good view of events on the west side of the river. He could see a good portion of the village. He saw villagers fleeing west and north. What he couldn’t see was what was happening downriver. Cemetery ridge and LSH blocked his view. That is why he made his move down Battle ridge from Calhoun ridge. His move didn’t have anything to do with taking hostages or finding northern fords. Had he been looking to cross the river, he would have taken all five companies with him.
Custer was specifically ordered not to let the hostiles get around him. He figured Reno and Benteen had them bottled up to the south. Custer was not seeing any attempt by the hostiles to flee eastward at any point around his position on Calhoun ridge. What he couldn’t see what was happening down river on the other side of Cemetery ridge. It was imperative that he know what was taking place just over this horizon.
Once he arrived in the Cemetery ridge vicinity his plan was to make a show of force to keep the Indians on the west side of the river. He’s stalling until Reno and Benteen push up from the south at which time Custer will hopefully have more options as to a course of offensive action. Custer may very well have sent a small party to a Ford D as a feint to keep the Indians on the west side. But I just don’t see him attempting any kind of crossing. He simply didn’t have the manpower for it.
That is my opinion on how Custer came to be separated from Keogh’s battalion. There are a lot of scenarios explaining what occurred next; some only slightly less likely than others. It's my guess that the Indians reacted to Custer's presence faster and more aggressively than he'd though possible.
Like you, I don’t believe the SSL represents soldiers fleeing from LSH. I think there is a very good chance that the SSL was man-made by the headstone placers.
I’ve never been very keen on trying to figure out the final moments of those five companies. There are just too many possibilities but I do enjoy reading the posts of those who do theorize how the end occurred. Chronologically speaking, my interest ends with trying to determine why Keogh and Custer split with Custer moving northward.
That’s my two cents worth, subject to change without notice..
George
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Post by Melani on Sept 14, 2009 14:37:48 GMT -6
I had always thought that a dismounted skirmish line was a standard cavalry tactic. Though I agree the SSL is probably spurious, based on weirdly located markers. What was the reason for placing those markers there?
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Post by shan on Sept 14, 2009 15:02:26 GMT -6
George, I think you have it about right. Nobody would have been mad enough; not even Custer, to have imagined that they could have attempted to cross at any of the fords D and be effective with only two companies. It does however indicate that when he left the Calhoun hill area, the command was perceived to be in control of the situation, with the warriors being kept at a respectable distance.
Of late I find I have come to the conclusion that Custer may have been killed somewhere around these Northern fords, maybe whilst leading a small party to check them out. If he were indeed a casualty, then it would make sense that they would wish to get him away from the river to somewhere where the doctor could see to him; although in truth there would have been nothing he could have done for him, as either wound would have killed him, if not straight away, then within minutes after being hit. Given the gravity of the situation they would naturally look for the first piece of defendable bit of ground, and where better than Cemetery ridge. But this is only I hunch I unaccountably find myself holding onto for the moment, one that is. let's face it, pretty unlikely to be disproved one way or another by any fresh evidence. Having said that, I'll be more than happy if someone out there can show me the error of my ways with some could evidence to the contrary.
With regards to cemetery ridge, John Stands in Timber seems to have gathered anecdotal evidence from several Cheyenne who were there, to the effect that part of Custer's force did indeed occupy Cemetery ridge for some 20 to 30 minutes if memory serves me right. When I first read that I was inclined to think that he must have got that wrong, as it certainly didn't fit in with any of my models of the battle at the time. But then you have to take a step back and say how arrogant of me to question a man who had sat and listened to the stories of men who had been there and taken part in the battle.
By occupying such a conspicuous position Custer certainly posed a threat the warriors across the river couldn't ignore, but it was also a vulnerable position, one that allowed warriors; the so called suicide warriors amongst them, to circle him to the East and occupy LSH from whence they could fire down on him. He would have no doubt hoped that Keogh would have been in a position to deter any such move, but as we all know, by this time Keogh had his hands full of more than he could handle.
Ryan, I suppose there is a chance that some soldiers did indeed run from Cemetery ridge towards Deep Ravine when things became unstable, maybe their route back to the rest of the command was cut off, certainly your point about there being only one or two men; if that, having been identified as belonging to E troop, being found amongst the dead on LSH would seem to indicate that they were never there for any length of time. Furthermore, I don't doubt that a number of men did indeed make a run from the hill just before the end of the fight, the number of Indians that mention this makes it seem a certainty in my book, and amongst those fleeing, I would include Boston and Autie Reed.
Shan
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Ryan
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Post by Ryan on Sept 14, 2009 16:04:33 GMT -6
Thanks for all of the replies! I thought it was time to freshen up the discussion board a bit with a new thread. Lately, Cemetery Ridge and the Ford D segments of the battle (however theoretical they are) have intrigued me the most. I personally accept that troops did approach Ford D, and likely occupied Cemetery Ridge subsequently. My belief is that Custer did not intend to personally capture noncombatants with his two companies; I think it was either a feint or they were trying to reconnoiter areas that would support an attack (Benteen's column was supposedly en route, far as they knew). A two company probe to the north is not madness, especially if you accept that the bulk of warriors were still to the south (or maybe just starting to accumulate) ,and not "chasing" Custer to the hill. And, again, don't put anything past Custer: he was a gamblin' man, which almost cost him more than his wallet at Trevilian Station in 64'.
Good point about "the hill," Dark Cloud. Probably does refer to Custer Hill as far as the translators of Indian accounts were concerned - the question in my mind is, is that an erroneous categorization on the part of these translators? I have no doubt that some warriors did indeed specifically intend Custer Hill as the point of origin. But then, "hill" could be a gross simplification of every single high point occupied by cavalry troopers, including (potentially) Cemetery Ridge. I suspect translators and interviewers of Indian participants linked the last of the fighting with the location where Custer was killed - it being the last stand, yadda yadda, and either omitted or ignored nearby positions which were occupied simultaneously. No way to prove that conclusively, but interesting thought. Then you got accounts like John Stands in Timber, Big Beaver who do specifically refer to the cemetery area as a position occupied by troopers. Big Beaver is exceptional in that he refers to the cemetery specifically as the point where 15-20 men bolted and ran to the ravine (and not in a very organized way).
Could be cross-dressing Indians, but John Stands in Timber gives a pretty vivid account of fighting by the river below CR - including one or two troopers gettin popped by the river - which doesn't jive well with harmless crossdressers parading cavalry uniforms, in my opinion (unless it was friendly fire?). And, oral history has its limits, but it also has incredible potential to remain more accurate than written history in my view (kunta kinte, people!). But, its the same size pill to swallow, really - each no less likely than the other.
As far as the CO of E Company, that is one hole in the CR theory that I don't have an answer for. You'd think he'd have been down by the E Company line on CR, if that's where they were operating as a unit. But, they didn't find Sturgis on LSH - his body wasn't identified, as I recall. They supposedly found his blood stained shirt in the village, which might suggest he was killed below Custer Hill. Not that you can really conclude that, but he might have been closer to the river than Smith, in order for his personal effects to wind up in the village. Still, Sturgis may have been commanding a separate E Company position, and perhaps Smith was incapacitated - but that doesn't explain why he was on Custer Hill.
Melani - from what I understand, the spurious markers on SSL were placed there, probably because Cpt. Sweet's men mistook scattered bone on the SSL as more bodies than the historical record suggests there were. Upper SSL is said to have had no more than a dozen bodies - 6-10 is what Fox suggests, and lower SSL around 13 bodies (in drainage above headcut). Can't remember the precise number of markers on SSL, but the bulk of them are considered spurious. That being said, 6/6 markers excavated there did yield human remains of six different individuals. Perhaps they did not want to place markers in the ravine because of fear they would be washed away by flooding? Will have to dig out Fox book to fact check that.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Sept 14, 2009 16:52:18 GMT -6
Don't forget the dates these Indian accounts first appeared. Like the soldiers', time and repetition requires new variants to keep it interesting. JSIT was a kid listening, in effect, to his grandfathers' stories, possibly for his entertainment as well.
It's certainly entirely possible some bolting horses brought soldiers to the river where they were shot.
But Kate Bighead and Red Horse each chatted about the CD's, and she said when the CD's crossed the river they scared the hell out of the women, screaming and fainting and hiding with their kids. Not hard to imagine some getting popped, then. But are these tales witnessed or repeated or conflated over time with events at MTC or Reno's fight? The point being, we know the CD's happened, and they happened at the times and in the areas where the Ford D theories apply. You can't pretend they didn't happen and must be accounted for rather than just ignore them. They're not a competing theory, they existed.
It's like postulating a 1864 battle at Gettysburg, and here are the artifacts found on the field that prove it. We just ignore 1863, because we have the recollections of alcoholic Pennsylvanians in their 80's only 70 years after the battle recorded by newly arrived Italian-Croatian translators, edited by hysterical yellow journalists, and located in the bottom of someone's notebook who just died and handed to the History Channel. "1863, the Year That Never Was," predicted by Nostradamus ("In those years, some things might happen somewhere!") will be the March 13 episode in 2010, two years before the Mayan Calendar - whose creators never foresaw the Aztecs, much less the Spaniards, much less people paying big money today to stand on the ruins of where they were dragged to have their hearts gouged out - rings down the curtain on us.
Maybe a tad into hyperbole, but you can't ignore what we know happened in order to entertain something we want to have happened.
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Ryan
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Post by Ryan on Sept 14, 2009 20:15:42 GMT -6
Hey Dark Cloud,
Ford D kinda deserves its own thread...but, agree to disagree. I'm not denying crossdressers approached the river, but if a cavalry position existed on CR, I wouldnt be surprised if at some point a cavalry unit had operated beyond Custer Hill, given CR's proximity to the northern fords (one is literally right in front of Cemetery Ridge). And there is a pretty convincing, if not entirely verifiable, argument to be made about troopers on CR. But good point about the Indian account dates - many of them are YEARS after the battle, and they are certainly prone to the "he says she says" Achilles heel of oral history. I wanted to post something more in depth, but it is past my bedtime *sigh*.
Didn't Nostradamus predict Custer would win the LBH in 1877? That explains it! He plum waited until the village packed up and left the bighorn valley before he proceeded north beyond Custer Hill! to cross the river! :-P
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Post by Dark Cloud on Sept 15, 2009 8:14:06 GMT -6
No matter what Custer found or decided to do at the hypothetical Ford D, how would he get the info to Keogh or anyone else in time to take advantage of 'it'? It's two to four miles to Calhoun Hill, depending where it the ford is supposed, uphill. Further, does it make sense that Keogh, if left to wait for whatever reason by Custer, or if Custer stayed with Keogh (even less compatable with his personality) wouldn't see LSH as both higher and ergo better for his dubious purposes than Calhoun?
The continually supposed division to places not in support of each other or even hearing or sight distance (given the dust) does not reflect well on whoever was in charge, and it's for that alone - although there's much else - I don't think Custer or any of his officers would do that. Everything east of the LBH to Custer Ridge is god awful ground (and worse beyond), and I cannot see any cavalry officer willingly going there having seen it from Weir Point, and this atop the old adages of stopped cavalry is defeated cavalry, going further from the enemy and not supporting Reno, all of that. Custer must be believed to have good intentions, and going in at MTC made the most sense today as it did then. Ford D would make sense if there was a shred of surprise possible, but they couldn't have announced themselves better with radio time and a bi-plane display sign overhead. Surprise was a ship that not only had sailed, but was taking water around Coronel.
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Post by Melani on Sept 15, 2009 8:18:54 GMT -6
Any of you cavalry types want to comment on the utility and effectiveness of a dismounted skirmish line?
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Post by clw on Sept 15, 2009 9:23:05 GMT -6
Don't know where the military types went. No one has even identified WMRH's gun for me. Can you believe it?
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Post by AZ Ranger on Sept 15, 2009 9:47:44 GMT -6
Any of you cavalry types want to comment on the utility and effectiveness of a dismounted skirmish line? Not a cavalry type but a mounted officer type. Not sure that on offense against a village that it was real effective. It is certainly a defensive tactic and may be better against a fixed defensive position. Didn't seem real effective by Reno. The Indians knew to ride around it at distance and attack the rear and flanks. Once separated from the horses how far can they move from the horses especially if in the open. I think the mounted rifle approach a better offensive tactic. Horses were the mode of transportation then infantry tactics were deployed. Did Custer walk or ride into the village at the Washita battle? AZ Ranger
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