alanw
Junior Member
Posts: 74
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Post by alanw on Jun 15, 2008 9:45:29 GMT -6
Hi, Sort of treading over old ground again.
A timeline issue to discuss.
How long did Benteen realistically have to reach Custer and save his command? - e.g. would he have had to have left immediately on receiving Cooke's note and totally ignored Reno's dilemma.
Would he have had to have gone without the packs, or at most with minimum packs bringing up the rear?
Could he have even got through to Custer in time, or at all? - would the Indians have been able spot his approach from a distance and:
cut off his attack, or even ambushed him?
I realize this is speculation, but the terrain in particular seems to be underestimated when discussing Benteen's options in supporting Custer. Many people diregard it completely when discussing Benteen's options and the impression can be read that he should have had no problem getting through to Custer in time.
Any ideas?
Cheers Alan
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Post by Dark Cloud on Jun 15, 2008 11:07:33 GMT -6
1. Announcing a timeline 'issue' inserts the notion that the activity was required, that Saving General Custer was the 7th's new mission. It was not. The mission - to breakup the camp and force them back to the rez by crook or hook - never changed. Since Reno with three companies had been defeated but survived, there was no reason to feel Custer would do less well.
2. Martin's note was remarkably uninformative, and in any case saddled Benteen with the train, a decided drag.
3. Continually sub dividing forces which, in aggregate, were insufficient to the need - and this in face of the enemy which greatly outnumered them, was rested, well fed, and motivated - was not a wise possibility. Benteen's every move was designed to keep mass together as he had initially recommended.
4. Of course the Indians on the Custer field could see him as soon as Sharpshooter was summited.
5. NO cavalry officer could look north from either Weir or Sharpshooter and willingly take his units there where they would HAVE to be on the defensive. Absolutely no one would do that, least of all Custer. Just look at it. A zillion ambush spots, bad land for cavalry to move in units or at all, no cover, and further from the village where you'd already ordered in three companies.
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Post by Melani on Jun 15, 2008 11:08:17 GMT -6
Would three more companies added to the fray have had enough effect to change the outcome, or would there just have been three more companies of dead guys? The Indians would have seen Benteen's approach--how to you think they would have dealt with it? The problem was presenting them with small bite-sized chunks of the Seventh--do you think Benteen would have been able to get through to join with Custer, or would he have been cut off before he got there? He was rather a bulldog--would an enthusiastic charge have been enough to push through whatever Indian resistance he met?
And what if he managed to take the functional men from Reno's command? It has been suggested that Company A might have been enough to take care of the wounded.
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Post by biggordie on Jun 15, 2008 11:59:09 GMT -6
alanw:
It is sometimes profitable to re-explore different facets of the events. At least one would get that impression from the regularity we do so. I don't usually deal in conjectures, but I'll make an exception here, for what it may be worth. BTW, welcome to the forum.
(1) Had Benteen moved at about the same pace as did Custer, once he had returned to the trail from his "left oblique march" it is barely conceivable that he might have actually seen the tail end of Custer's command going over the high ground north of North Ash Creek. It would have been close. Had he in fact done so, he could have sent a galloper to Custer saying that he was coming on [then there would have been no need for the messengers sent by Custer], and Custer could have waited for Benteen to arrive - or sent him instructions to do otherwise, if that was what he wanted.
If he had missed the sighting referenced above, he would have had no way of knowing where Custer had gone.
(2) Let's say that Benteen did not increase his pace, and that the first intimation of what Custer had done or wanted was Knipe's message that "they want you up there as fast as you can get there." Even then, he might have gone fast enough to avoid bumping into Reno's retreating command [probably just] and headed north.
(3) Let's say that Benteen did what he actually did, and sent Knipe back to the pack train, and moved on at the pace he had been maintaining until Martin arrived. Even had he asked Martin where Custer had gone and galloped up to the high ground, chances are pretty good that he would still have run into Reno as he in fact did. In any event, Custer was already beyond MTC.
He could have told Reno that he had a direct order from Custer to "come on" and continued north.
(4) Only in scenario (!) above was there any possibilty of Benteen joining Custer while there was still an opportunity of doing so, and only if he had actually seen the tail of Custer's command and acted as I suggested. Otherwise, scenarios (2) or (3) would apply.
In scenarios (2) and (3), Benteen could have advanced as far as Weir Point without being molested in any serious way - as he did a while later [how much later depends upon your point of view]. I do not believe that he could have joined Custer had he attempted to do so, or benefited him in any meaningful way - and would only have upped the body count by trying to go any farther.
By the time he would have reached Weir Point, Custer would have been considerably farther north, and warriors would have been streaming up Medicine Tail Coulee, Deep Coulee, Deep Ravine and other routes to the higher ridges where Custer's troops wound up.
This is, of course, as you point out, all a mater of conjecture, and since my conjecture is just as good as anyone else's, there you go.
Regards,
Gordie
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zak
New Member
Posts: 11
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Post by zak on Jun 15, 2008 18:14:15 GMT -6
I would just like to say that when people suggest Custer wanted Benteen to rescue him from defeat, suggests he thought he was going to be defeated, which is nonsense. Has anyone ever heard of an officer drawing up a battle plan which results in his command being defeated or needing rescuing? Assistance maybe. So Benteen is reasonable in staying with Reno and not charging to Custer, which is likely where Custer wanted him. I don't have it in front of me, but I believe Benteen's quote is, "I thought he could take care of himself." I would like to also add that such a small unit having witnessed the condition of Reno, would proceed with caution, not dead on speed. Like Darkcloud said, lots of ambush points. For what it's worth.
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Post by biggordie on Jun 15, 2008 19:49:41 GMT -6
zak:
I don't think that anyone is saying that Custer wanted Benteen to rescue him. I doubt that Custer had any thoughts of being beaten until it was a virtual fact. The question was more on the order of "Was it possible for Benteen to have prevented Custer's disaster in the circumstances as they developed and what would he have to have done in order to do that?
This is all "what ifs"and conjecture, and has nothing to do with what Benteen should have done in the actual circumstances after meeting Reno. One might argue that he had a duty to see what was what up ahead; but any argument that he should have then attempted to join Custer is utter nonsense - especially considering that Custer, or any part of his command, was beyond saving when Weir reached Weir Point.
Gordie
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Post by pohanka on Jun 21, 2008 18:59:49 GMT -6
On that particular day, I seriously doubt if Benteen could have saved Custer. The warriors "medicine" was too good and, "Custer's Luck" abruptly ran out of gas. However, while it is true that the command was extinguished by the time Weir arrived, the command was very much alive and kicking for the approximate hour that Reno and Benteen cooled their heels on Reno's Hill. The point being this, we will never know because no effort was made to unite with Custer until it was too late.
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Post by conz on Jun 24, 2008 13:45:19 GMT -6
For me, whether or not Benteen could have done anything to save the mission, or Custer's command, is irrelevant.
What condemns Benteen and Reno both, are their poor attempts at trying.
Clair
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Post by crzhrs on Jun 24, 2008 15:39:42 GMT -6
Benteen to Terry:
"Mistakes were made."
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Post by Dark Cloud on Jun 24, 2008 16:41:44 GMT -6
They didn't try. They were under no obligation to try, and it would have risked their duty to do so. They saved the 7th to succeed in the mission later, and by the end of 1876, it was mostly done.
You're quoting from that terrible movie, crzhrs. Movies and novels aren't relevant.
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Post by conz on Jun 25, 2008 7:15:13 GMT -6
They didn't try. They were under no obligation to try, and it would have risked their duty to do so. They saved the 7th to succeed in the mission later, and by the end of 1876, it was mostly done. That's one opinion, and one of course that I disagree with, as a military officer. Now Sheridan and Sherman didn't think their poor efforts were worth chastizing the gentlemen...but then they didn't get medals for their leadership at LBH either, eh? So we are left with the judgment that whatever Reno and Benteen did, neither were officially condemned, nor were either officially commended, for their decisions that day, looks to me. Benteen is commended for his cool conduct of the Reno defense, though, and rightly so. In my mind, if you pick a poor course of action, you should at least do that well! <g> Clair
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tatanka
Full Member
Live for today like there was no tomorrow
Posts: 125
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Post by tatanka on Aug 8, 2008 6:47:12 GMT -6
I agree with darkcloud. Reno and Benteen were under no obligation to save Custer. After all, Custer had promised to support them, particularly Reno. How were they going to do it? Renos' command was shot to pieces. What were they going to do with the wounded? Leave them on Reno Hill? Many troopers had lost their horses. Were they going to ride double? Or walk? Such fine targets! Even if somehow they fought their way thru how many would be left? The Custer fight would have been over by then and the full force of warriors could have been unleashed on them. Weir tried it and was lucky to escape with his scalp. The entire 7th would have been wiped out to a man and we would be discussing the Indian accounts of the battle because that is all we would have.
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Post by darkmoon on Aug 9, 2008 10:24:16 GMT -6
DC: "They didn't try. They were under no obligation to try, and it would have risked their duty to do so. They saved the 7th to succeed in the mission later, and by the end of 1876, it was mostly done.
You're quoting from that terrible movie, crzhrs. Movies and novels aren't relevant."
Oh but my dear sir they were under such an obligation, especially Benteen. Little is known of the instruction Custer gave to him. But we do know most assuredly that Benteen wasn't where he was supposed be and when he was supposed to have been there!
Reno's instruction too, are risky at best to assess. When does merely "following" a group of indians between them and the river; barely a half mile away, with about 25 Indian scouts, change in the twinkling of an eye to a full blown and yet grand charge upon a huge Indian village? Custer's incompetence or Reno's blunder? Many believe the former, but such is their incompetence in research.
"They saved the 7th to succeed in the mission later, and by the end of 1876, it was mostly done."
This one sentence is the absuridity with which most have approached this battle. Benteen's heroism left little for any to doubt, right? Respectfully sir, no. It was his cowardice! A fact that I can prove beyond any shadow of doubt. And so too can you or anyone else who cares not what Benteen or for that matter Reno did or said! Lets begin our kind assessment of that discussion with three words... "disbedience of orders"; and no I am not referring to any other officer than Benteen.
tatanka: "I agree with darkcloud. Reno and Benteen were under no obligation to save Custer. After all, Custer had promised to support them, particularly Reno. How were they going to do it? Renos' command was shot to pieces. What were they going to do with the wounded? Leave them on Reno Hill? Many troopers had lost their horses. Were they going to ride double? Or walk? Such fine targets! Even if somehow they fought their way thru how many would be left? The Custer fight would have been over by then and the full force of warriors could have been unleashed on them. Weir tried it and was lucky to escape with his scalp. The entire 7th would have been wiped out to a man and we would be discussing the Indian accounts of the battle because that is all we would have.
Kind sir: The above underlined and much abused phrase is the reason for such blunders in our research; that have led many to the unbelievable if not preposterous assertions that follow in its wake. Ask yourself, would Custer have supported 25 Indian scouts with the "whole outfit"? And please sir, do read carefully my response to DC before answering.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Aug 10, 2008 9:32:48 GMT -6
Let me understand your standards- Beyond the shadow of doubt is greater than the criminal standard that usually requires someone to be alive and should have a right to defend themselves within a reasonable time of occurrence of the event. Since the military had every opportunity to have a live Benteen appear before a court martial than there is reasonable doubt that probable cause existed.
Which officers accused Benteen of cowardice? What recorded statements and testimonies existed that he was a coward?
I think is impossible in 2008 to prove Benteen guilty of a criminal matter that allegedly occurred in 1876. Can anyone present facts of a military court martial occurring when the accused is dead?
I believe you fancy yourself as prosecutor, judge, jury, and finder of fact.
Most here stick close to a civil standard which is simply slightly over 50 % probability of being correct and nowhere near shadow of doubt which is probably higher than the criminal standard.
AZ Ranger
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Post by clw on Aug 10, 2008 10:46:18 GMT -6
And yet, there have been no press releases. When can we expect them? I'll never understand people who destroy their own credibility.
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