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Post by Diane Merkel on Aug 18, 2008 16:37:10 GMT -6
Best of luck with Fay, clw. I hope she is kind to you. The change in atmospheric pressure must be affecting me all the way up here because I am actually going to quote Clair. My impression is the fact that Custer had to send a note to Benteen at all, and that Cooke wrote "be quick" twice, is that Custer was PISSED at Benteen. Why would Custer be pissed when Benteen was following his instructions? For all Custer knew, Benteen was out chasing Indian-less valleys as he was instructed to do. Benteen was where Custer sent him. It was Benteen's instincts and judgment that sent him back. Even under duress, I doubt Custer expected the pack train to gallop to his aid. BINGO! It was not Benteen's fault that Reno was not supported in the valley. To quote Vern Smalley: "Benteen's critics have repeatedly assumed the man had paranormal abilities and could sense the tragedy about to happen to Custer. That criticism is most unfair."
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Post by Dark Cloud on Aug 18, 2008 17:30:20 GMT -6
Even with Martin's various stories, Custer being mad at Benteen was not included.
Even so, maintain focus on the falsehood conz tries to implant, meld it with the supposed "come quick" and admit that those are fabrications that should be drowned in the tub as soon as the mewling appears.
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Post by conz on Aug 19, 2008 6:53:09 GMT -6
As usual, conz has it wrong. The packs are mentioned twice, not 'be quick.' It's that West Point training. At least he isn't fabricating "come quick" as has been claimed. It's damning that with so few words, Custerphiles still feel the need to change them to what they wished they said, and as with all the "come quick" variants that aren't true, they never note the error. Conz courageously has found a new error of his own to try and implant, and the Custerphiles ignore it if they recognize it as such at all. Defer to the wannabe Hussar and he might pet them. Yet I see don't see how my error here obviates my point, and you fail to address that. Point is, that Custer has to tell his distant column to "be quick." And in doing so, he doesn't want Benteen to forget to tell the train to be quick, too. Do you agree that there was a reason Custer felt he had to send a written note to Benteen? For what reason, do you believe? Clair
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Post by crzhrs on Aug 19, 2008 7:00:39 GMT -6
The "written" note was due to the fact that Martini may have not been able to convey to Benteen in proper English what Custer wanted.
Cooke probably realized that and wrote the note. Martini stated he had no idea what was in the note, saw Cooke/Custer discussing something (later changed it to Custer personally telling him) then Cooke told him to deliver the note to Benteen.
The reason was Custer may have realized that Benteen was, in fact, on a wild goose chase, and needed to be recalled and to bring the packs on his return.
Obviously there was some confusion if Custer/Cooke thought Benteen was part of, or with the pack train, or even in close proxmity to it.
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Post by conz on Aug 19, 2008 7:11:59 GMT -6
Hi Diane... Why would Custer be pissed when Benteen was following his instructions? If Benteen were following Custer's instructions, why would he need a note to "be quick?" Was being quick not part of his original orders, and he needed a change from Custer from "be slow," to "be quick?" That rather tells me that Benteen is doing something that Custer doesn't like, and needs to be corrected, eh? Is there any other possible interpretation of Custer's motivation to have to write out a message to Benteen to "be quick?" Do you believe that Custer was trying to tell Benteen to chase into Indian-less valleys more quickly, then, in his note? Or was he changing Benteen's orders? What is it that Custer wants Benteen to be more quick about? I don't see any order to tell Benteen to "stop your other mission, and come quickly to me now." Since that is missing, I think we must assume that Custer ALREADY thought Benteen should be there with him. All he told Benteen was to do that mission which he already was supposed to be doing (coming back to him) more quickly, don't you think? I agree that Benteen's original orders from Custer said that when he felt he had done all he could scouting that flank, that he was to return to the main column. These are the orders Custer would assume Benteen had, right? Custer would rely on Benteen to do that job, and then return to Custer as soon as possible...that is, "quickly." The fact, again, that Custer had to tell Benteen to do his job more quickly than he was, tells me that Benteen was not where Custer expected him to be, by his previous orders. IOW, Benteen's orders were never meant by Custer to be an endless scout on the left flank. Benteen was OBVIOUSLY intended to stay closer to Custer than he did, by the evidence of that message where Custer assumed Benteen was right behind him, and should have been up by the time he wrote that message, having to tell Benteen to "be quick." Custer's note to be quick, without having to tell him what about, tells you all you need, I think, about what Custer intended Benteen to be doing at this point. Custer certainly did NOT think that Benteen was supposed to be way out on the flank somewhere, at this point. If he thought that, then he would have directed a change in mission/original orders to Benteen...but he didn't think he had to here. Either Benteen misunderstood what Custer wanted him to do, or he knew and lied at the RCOI about what his flank mission was, and how far away from Custer he was supposed to be when Reno hit the village. This is what we can decipher by Custer's simple admonition to "be quick," you see. No...just as quickly as they could be taken. Actually, a couple mules with ammo packs probably could be galloped, though.... What an odd attitude. That statement could only be true if one calls heavy combat a "tragedy." Don't you agree that we should assume that Benteen knew that Custer and Reno were headed into a big fight, and that his job was to be in that fight? That he didn't do more to get into that fight is a very valid criticism of Benteen, isn't it? Get me in touch with Vern Smalley, and we'll hash that out...<g> Clair
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Post by conz on Aug 19, 2008 7:16:48 GMT -6
There seem to be some misconceptions by some concerning Benteen's mission.
Why does anyone believe that Benteen was sent by Custer on a "wild goose chase?"
What makes anyone think that Custer's orders did not intend for Benteen to stay close enough to be a short ride to the main body in the event they got into a big fight?
Where does this notion come from that Benteen was supposed to go on "forever and forever" off to the southwest, and it was only his good sense to cancel Custer's misguided order and return to the main trail, against what Custer wanted?
What an odd attitude...makes no tactical sense. You think Army officers are stupid? Okay...you don't have to answer that last. <G> Officers are certainly not beyond doing a little CYA, though, to cover their reputations...
Clair
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Post by clw on Aug 19, 2008 7:39:41 GMT -6
Solely from Benteen.
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Post by crzhrs on Aug 19, 2008 8:27:41 GMT -6
The "wild goose chase" comment is from Benteen.
However, Custer did send two additional messengers telling him to keep going.
I believe there are soldiers that witnessed the two messengers.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Aug 19, 2008 8:29:05 GMT -6
Conz I believe it is simple to understand Benteen's view of a wild goose chase. Hindsight He didn't know it nor did Custer at the time of the original order to the left. Considering Terry's admonishment and Custer lack of recon it was a sound decision at the time but in hindsight it it began the ball rolling in the wrong direction. Benteen would have been in the fight and earlier if it had not occurred. So thinking it a wild goose chase is hindsight.
Unless someone has some quotes that occurred at the time of the orders to move to left having Benteen asking why am I going on a wild goose chase then hindsight coupled with how it could have been done better is the my opinion of Benteen statements.
I don't buy the ammunition need for the packs. Your moving against lots of Indians but in a unknown location and as an after thought you think of ammunition? Why not take these high speed mules with each battalion ?
I would think it more likely seeing the size of the village it was a security of the pack train issue. It does point out that Custer could have regrouped with his regiment if he thought two packs with ammunition could make it to him following behind Benteen for those that think Custer wanted Benteen at his location.
I do not believe Custer wanted or expected Benteen to report to him. That would be easier to write than the actual note. I beleive he wanted him to the village location and use his judgement as experienced officer on what to do.
Don't you think Benteen would have been more engaged if he had been with Reno or Custer without the side recon (wild goose chase)? For that he can in his mind I suspect blame Custer for for his lack of early engagement. He was a fighter and left, no pun intended, out at the most critical first few minutes.
AZ Ranger
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Post by crzhrs on Aug 19, 2008 9:39:06 GMT -6
Benteen: "General, if the village is large as they say, shouldn't we keep the entire command together?" (source: Benteen)
If we are to believe Benteen, he didn't feel any need to do any scouting and wanted to keep the command together.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Aug 19, 2008 9:50:30 GMT -6
The important thing is not to dwell upon conz' remarkable error about what the Martin note actually contained and implied in that vast jungle of intricate sentence structure, and allow him to sputter about to change the subject, and predictably rely on a baseless assumption of reader stupidity. Doesn't seem to have gained altitude with an actual combat vet.
Grace under pressure, learned at the Arsenal of Military Thought and Undeserved Legacy Admissions that actually has the note in its possession and, it occurs, a display case. One might think he'd have taken advantage of his proximity to that very definition of a primary source and, somehow, memorized it.
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Post by conz on Aug 19, 2008 10:32:07 GMT -6
Exactly. I've never heard any other military man say or believe this. Clair
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Post by conz on Aug 19, 2008 10:46:44 GMT -6
Conz I believe it is simple to understand Benteen's view of a wild goose chase. Hindsight He didn't know it nor did Custer at the time of the original order to the left. Considering Terry's admonishment and Custer lack of recon it was a sound decision at the time but in hindsight it it began the ball rolling in the wrong direction. Benteen would have been in the fight and earlier if it had not occurred. So thinking it a wild goose chase is hindsight. I'm sure you are right, but how far in hindsight? Did Benteen think this as he was moving out to the left/SW? Interesting that Custer's initial orders and concept didn't put Benteen out that far...he had to send a couple adjustments to send Benteen out further than he originally told him. But the original intent of Benteen's scout was the same...he wasn't to get too far away from the command, and was expected to be at the commander's call...otherwise he wouldn't have been told to go further out that he originally did...those messages did not change Benteen's goal/mission at all...it only made some minor adjustements to it. The mission remained the same: scout the left and then return to the column. Here's the thing about ammo pacs...you can't have them with you if you want to quickly make contact with the enemy to bring him to heel, or failing that, to pursue the enemy with hopes of getting close enough to do some damage. Sorry, but the mules stay behind. IF, however, you find that the enemy is going to stand and fight, then you need that ammunition badly, and quickly, too! You won't last more than a couple hours in a heavy firefight without extra ammo. So as soon as Custer knew the Indians were in for a fight, it was time to bring up the pacs. So I really do think it is an ammo issue. I don't see much evidence that Custer was really worried as much about security of the train at this time, but that is certainly always a consideration. I think Custer already believed Benteen's mission was to meet up with the rest of the command, so there was no need to put that in any note. Commanders only give orders if something is CHANGED...if they need to change instructions, or to get a subordinate to comply with original instructions. So here, it is pretty obvious that because Custer did not give Benteen a new mission, he already thought Benteen was supposed to be up there with him. And because he DID tell Benteen to "be quick," it says that Benteen was NOT as quick as his commander thought he ought to be! Aye, he had been denied the "advance guard" mission, where all the GLORY is. <g> That would make any cavalry officer sulk. But just think of poor McDougall...he was REALLY in agony! Yet in a relative way, he seemed to hurry his mules better than Benteen did his horse command, seems to me... Do I think Benteen was itching to get into action? No, I don't, because of the double examples of CPT Weir. I think Weir's example condemns Benteen better than any other piece of evidence... Clair
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Post by crzhrs on Aug 19, 2008 15:23:49 GMT -6
<Do I think Benteen was itching to get into action? No, I don't, because of the double examples of CPT Weir. I think Weir's example condemns Benteen better than any other piece of evidence...>
Or Benteen was being cautious like a good commander when facing the unknown. And Benteen was pretty much in an unknown situation: He was not told about the Reno/Custer division of the command; he was not told about Indians sighted; he was not told about Reno's order to attack Indians and bring them to battle. He did receive two messengers to tell him to continue with his scout and then decides to turn back when he doesn't believe it is necessary to continue.
He gets two more messengers (and one of them, Kanipe, wasn't originally sent to him, the other, Martini, with a poor grasp of the English language bringing a cryptic note) now telling him to come back and bring packs. But he doesn't have the packs and if he goes back he can't "be quick."
I'd be a little cautious under those circumstances . . . and it wasn't Weir's position to make decisions that could jeopardize everyone's lives.
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Post by mcaryf on Aug 20, 2008 5:52:00 GMT -6
I am becoming increasingly convinced that Custer did not know for sure where Benteen was when he sent Martini.
I have explained before that I think Custer's motivation in sending the message was more to do with this being the last chance to send a messenger before attacking the village.
Custer had given Benteen default orders to return to the trail if he could not find a route to or a sighting of the valley.
I think the reference to "be quick" was because Custer realised that Benteen would be some way behind if he had returned to the trail and it would be useful to have Benteen near the village for the mopping up, thus having fresh horses would be less relevant (no real fighting expected) than having some extra men to corrall NAs.
I think the reference to the packs was included because the only way that Martini would actually find Benteen was if he had returned to the trail and necessarily that would mean he would be close to and probably behind the packs.
If Benteen was behind or very near the packs it would make sense for him to cover them whilst they went to a place of safety as quickly as possible. This is what I think Custer wanted and what Benteen tried to do.
When Custer sent the message I do not think he had any idea that he was at risk of defeat. He was expecting imminent victory but with a risk of warriors scattering all over and possibly some large warparties or hunting groups returning. Hence the need for Benteen to help get the train secure before joining in the mopping up.
Increasingly this seems to me to be the most logical thing for Custer to have done with the knowledge he had and this interpretation works for all the words rather than singling out odd phrases for greater emphasis.
Regards
Mike
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