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Post by conz on Aug 20, 2008 7:05:29 GMT -6
I'd be a little cautious under those circumstances . . . and it wasn't Weir's position to make decisions that could jeopardize everyone's lives. And you'd get chewed out by your boss, if he was a Hussar, too. Maybe not by Gen'l Buford...he might commend you for your caution. But I don't think Custer wanted Benteen to be cautious, do you? His note doesn't imply anything about being cautious, looks to me. So if you agree that Benteen was being cautious (= slow), then we agree. And some may applaud him for that, some may condemn him for it. I think Custer felt the latter, don't you? Clair
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Post by conz on Aug 20, 2008 7:22:50 GMT -6
I am becoming increasingly convinced that Custer did not know for sure where Benteen was when he sent Martini. Oh, I don't think many will argue with you here, Mike. I've not perceived anyone thinking that Custer had much more of an idea of where Benteen was other than a vague dust trail in the distance when he got to high ground to see it. I think a key indicator of what that note was for is that it was sent shortly after Custer got in a position to see those trailing dust clouds. Kinda "tying up loose ends." Perhaps...in addition, I think that the knowledge that the Indians were standing to fight, hence requiring both more firepower, and more ammunition, prompted him to write that note. He wrote it probably just after Custer saw Reno dismount to firefight, don't you think? Rather than "default" orders, I'd call them "follow on" orders, in modern parlance. It is what you do after the initial mission you are given. In this case, Benteen is to scout to the left. At some point left to his discretion, he is to rejoin the main body. That "discretionary decision point" is what gets these guys in trouble, for Benteen has to properly read the intent of his commander as to when that point is, and if there ends up being a discrepancy, he is likely to hear about it later from the boss (maybe an urgent note?). That would be a reasonable interpretation if Custer thought the Indians were running at the time he wrote that note. Is that what you believe? That Custer didn't think the Warriors would stand and fight, and stop Reno? Hmmm...I don't see this connection. I've seen it referenced above that Custer may have anticipated that upon the proper conclusion of Benteen's mission, he would end up farther away from the main body than the train was, and end up behind it on the trail. That's a real stretch, and I see no evidence for it, nor reason to assume that Custer may have thought this. This model would really have Custer putting Benteen deliberately way out of the picture. Why would he do this? If Custer's concern was safety of the trains at that moment, this is plausible. But I'm not sure at this point in the battle Custer is thinking one bit about the safety of the trains far to the rear with no threat in sight for them. Reno has just dove into a huge firefight and Custer is moving as fast as he can to his aid...I think Custer is focused on doing everything he can to mass combat power at the critical point, and won't have time to think about rear area security issues. And if it is a choice of "reinforce the battle, or rienforce trains rear area security," do you really think Custer is going to choose the latter? Probably not. Win the critical fight, and the rear area will take care of itself. <g> I certainly agree that Custer was only thinking of ways to win the battle at this point. Which is also why I don't think adding combat power back to the trains would occur to him. I think adding combat power to win the fight would be at the forefront of his thinking. Just my opinion, of course...it's always good to examine all possibilities, and this model you've shown is a possible one. Ah, the deciphering of words...officers really should be more careful with their language, eh? Don't I know it! <BG> Clair (frequent sufferer of "hoof in mouth" disease)
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Post by AZ Ranger on Aug 20, 2008 7:23:31 GMT -6
Here's the thing about ammo pacs...you can't have them with you if you want to quickly make contact with the enemy to bring him to heel, or failing that, to pursue the enemy with hopes of getting close enough to do some damage. Sorry, but the mules stay behind.
IF, however, you find that the enemy is going to stand and fight, then you need that ammunition badly, and quickly, too! You won't last more than a couple hours in a heavy firefight without extra ammo. So as soon as Custer knew the Indians were in for a fight, it was time to bring up the pacs. So I really do think it is an ammo issue. I don't see much evidence that Custer was really worried as much about security of the train at this time, but that is certainly always a consideration.
Did Custer know that they were going to stand and fight him or Reno at the time Martin was sent? So if the the pack train was to where there was standing and fighting that would be Reno? If Benteen and the packs were to go to the valley then they would have 7 companies and supplies. A much better plan I would think. Custer would have seen the terrain by this time. If Custer expected the packs to come to him then he would remain where they could catch up with him. He did not and there is no way packs are going to catch up with cavalry on the move with a head start.
AZ Ranger
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Post by AZ Ranger on Aug 20, 2008 7:33:07 GMT -6
Be quick- stop the original order and focus on moving up to the big village move out at an extended trot. Custer knew Benteen to be a competent cavalry officer and maintaining horses prepared for battle would be a concern of any competent cavalry officer.
Even Conz's Hussars would not want to burn up the horses before making contact with the enemy.
AZ Ranger
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Post by conz on Aug 20, 2008 7:34:04 GMT -6
Did Custer know that they were going to stand and fight him or Reno at the time Martin was sent? That, AZ, must be a critical element of anyone's model concerning Custer's decision-making: "Did he know Reno had dismounted when he sent Martin towards Benteen?" Your determination on this will influence greatly what you think that note is trying to say. My judgment is that Custer at this point knew Reno had dismounted to firefight, or at least that he would have to (seeing the Warrior resistance in front of him). It would service Reno, Custer, and Benteen, as they needed ammo. It just needs to be within reach...the orders are meant to get it into the area, nothing more. I don't think Custer had made any decision with regards to where Benteen would be deployed once he got there...that would depend upon how the situation had developed by that time, I would think. At least he gives no indication in his note as to how Benteen should be deployed. He just wants him in the fight, obviously. Right...Custer would only want them in support range. He never intended them to accompany any cavalry combat column, I'm sure. Clair
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Post by crzhrs on Aug 20, 2008 7:52:48 GMT -6
<But I don't think Custer wanted Benteen to be cautious, do you?>
Scouting is usually done with some semblance of cautiousness . . . afterall you don't want to tip off the enemy.
From most accounts Custer hesitated for some time before making contact with Indians . . . was he being cautious? It was said Custer told his men to hold there horses when in sight of the village. That indicates some cautiousness to me . . . otherwise Custer would have so: OK, let's charge right now and the heck with waiting for Benteen or see how things develop.
I think Custer showed cautiousness as he neared the village . . . whether that cost him and his men their lives is still debated.
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Post by conz on Aug 20, 2008 10:54:46 GMT -6
Be quick- stop the original order and focus on moving up to the big village move out at an extended trot. Custer knew Benteen to be a competent cavalry officer and maintaining horses prepared for battle would be a concern of any competent cavalry officer. Even Conz's Hussars would not want to burn up the horses before making contact with the enemy. AZ Ranger An important consideration, but only that...not a rule. The officer must make a judgment of the need for speed versus the need to be fresh enough to do anything when you get there. There are many cases in military history where the correct answer is to ride your horses to death just to "get there firstest with the mostest" sometimes. Getting there too late with fresh horses is a GREATER sin than getting there on time with dead horses, in most any officer's judgment. Perfect is to get there on time with some horse left, of course. Hard calls to make sometimes...why they pay those field grades the big bucks... Clair
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Post by conz on Aug 20, 2008 10:58:54 GMT -6
<But I don't think Custer wanted Benteen to be cautious, do you?> Scouting is usually done with some semblance of cautiousness . . . afterall you don't want to tip off the enemy. From most accounts Custer hesitated for some time before making contact with Indians . . . was he being cautious? It was said Custer told his men to hold there horses when in sight of the village. That indicates some cautiousness to me . . . otherwise Custer would have so: OK, let's charge right now and the heck with waiting for Benteen or see how things develop. I think Custer showed cautiousness as he neared the village . . . whether that cost him and his men their lives is still debated. Very possible...I'm sure we can isolate cases where Custer was being cautious. Perhaps the biggest is that he didn't take his entire command immediately across MTC ford in column of fours at the gallop, figurative sabers drawn! So there is certainly a time for caution, and a time to "throw caution to the winds." Hussars exist in all armies, then and today, to do the later more often than heavy cavalry, infantry, or artillery leaders would call for. And they judge their subordinates with that same standard. Clair
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Post by runaheap on Aug 20, 2008 12:04:04 GMT -6
Could Benteen save Custer? No Way! One of the facts that keeps bouncing around, and it becomes a total conjecture is: Why does Custer tell Reno he will support him,and then ends up dead as doornail some 4 1/2 miles away? Go figure indeed! The Cooke note: "Come on Big Village", is the last "eyes on" evidence we have. The location he wrote this note is also a conjecture, but I think we can get it close. It had to have been up-slope and near MTC, and I also believe that this position may have given Custer his first sight of how awesome this village really was. The position is certainly elevated enough, and I also believe Custer could see a great many woman and children and warriors(they're headed to the ponies) bolting to the west. The optimum part of this message then becomes "Big Village", the reality of it's size finally jolts the golden boy. He has already divided his command into 2wings and he tells Yates to take his two companies (E&F) to hit them now! At this time the "hostiles" have already chased Reno back to the hilltop. They begin returning to the village as they can see another group of Wasicus to the east of the village and they begin circling to the west and the lower end of the village in large groups at a dead run. Custer thinks that Reno has put them "ON the Run", He moves C,I&L to the north as quickly as he can in order to cross the river and place his battalion between the warriors and the village. If he does he will own the day! In the interim Yates is repulsed at the river and is falling back with enough Indians on his flank (to the south) that he has to dismount and refuse a portion of his line. Custer is approaching the ridge to the west of Calhoun Hill when he realizes that the Indians have crossed over (just to the west of the present cemetery) and are in his front in mass. "Dismount and fight on foot" is his last order! The rest is history, as they say!
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Post by mcaryf on Aug 21, 2008 5:20:25 GMT -6
One of the key factors in determining Custer's intentions with the note is to decide what Custer had seen of the Reno fight.
There are clear witness statements that place Custer's column at or near Sharpshooters when Reno dismounted his men. Thereafter there is some suggestion from Martini and the Crows that Custer may have paused at Sharpshooters for a few minutes to observe. If we accept that the few minutes are after Reno dismounted rather than before then Custer may well have seen Reno's initial firing and possibly the start of the warriors' flanking moves.
Many of the accounts from Reno's force suggest that Reno was initially lightly opposed albeit Girard and the scouts detected that warriors were coming forward from the village when Reno first crossed the LBH. We have suggestions of a warrior force of around a couple of hundred. Reno claims that many more suddenly appeared from concealment once he stopped but this increase in strength may well have been a more gradual process.
So what has Custer observed? Reno has swept up the valley with warriors retreating in front of him. Reno has chosen to dismount and not to get in amongst the tepis which is probably sensible as the warrior strength is not yet clear. This does not necessarily mean that the warriors are standing and fighting a pitched battle but could easily be interpreted as their usual tactic of trying to cover the escape of their families.
Martini is fairly clear that the initial impression of Custer and his officers was that they had caught the warriors by surprise and that many might be away from the village on a warparty or hunting.
The interpretation of Custer's note depends critically on whether you think that Custer's initial impression had changed from this. My view is that it probably had not, a big increase in warrior strength against Reno occurred just about the time he chose to withdraw from the timber. In my view Custer was well out of sight by then so it is entirely possible that Custer still thought that Reno was opposed by only a few hundred warriors and that Reno had succeeded in pulling them to the near end of the village leaving the way open for Custer to attack the far end.
I do not think Custer went himself to Weir Peaks and he would not have seen the true size of the village and the warrior strength until he had travelled part way down MTC and sent a force towards the river. By this time it was too late for him to think of re-uniting with Reno and his subsequent movements were in response to warrior pressure rather than his own choice although his initial move further down river may have been in search of an unopposed crossing.
Thus when he sent his message to Benteen I think Custer reckoned he had the fight won. Reno's attack had pulled the warriors to a position where they thought they were defending the village. Custer would apply the coup de grace by appearing in their rear and the warrior resistance would collapse.
Benteen's extra men would be useful for mopping up but the only serious concern was an attack on the packs by returning or scattering warriors. Hence this was the purpose of Custer's note.
Regards
Mike
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Post by runaheap on Aug 22, 2008 7:28:56 GMT -6
Mike, you could be right, and if so, the message to Benteen is nothing more than "House Cleaning" chores.
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Post by zekesgirl on Jan 10, 2009 17:04:19 GMT -6
Since there is a lot of speculation regarding Custer's order to Benteen and Benteen's response, I'll throw my thoughts out and you can tear them to shreds. Benteen was already to the west of the others (more or less). What if he continues in a north-northwest direction and encounters the village from the opposite side of Custer?
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jan 10, 2009 17:35:12 GMT -6
Bring Packs
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Post by biggordie on Jan 10, 2009 17:38:20 GMT -6
zekesgirl:
Benteen was more to the southeast. In fact he did move northwest, and joined Reno on the bluff top. Whether or not he shuld have moved on, instead of stopping with Reno, is one of the bones of contention.
In order to attack the village from the opposite end from Custer, Benteen would have to have crossed the river, which he stated he would not do with his untested troops. He did, however, according to Luther Hare, later say that he would have crossed and joined Reno, had Reno still been in the timber.
Reno had already "attacked" from that quarter, and had been repulsed.
My personal opinion is that A) it was not Benteen;s duty to throw away his command in any attempt to "save Custer,: and B) that that is exactly what he would have been doing had he attempted either movement - toward Custer, or into the valley - as things stood.
Benteen is not blameless in all things, but there is no way he could have saved Custer, IMHO, who was, to all intents and purposes, doomed as soon as he decided to cross MTC, and move north.
Gordie
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