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Post by elisabeth on Aug 18, 2008 4:55:43 GMT -6
George,
Agreed, no-one would raise an eyebrow for a moment about his decision to return -- if it weren't that he himself is so defensive about it. Even in his official report he feels obliged to explain that it "savoured too much of coffee-cooling" to do otherwise. At the RCOI, true, he's editorialising to show the senselessness of the valley-hunting order; but the question of his returning to the trail is something he continues to argue out with himself for decades after, both in his battle narratives ("My real Simon-pure straight orders, were, to hunt that valley") and in his correspondence with Goldin ("Now I don't know how much farther I should have had to go in the direction I was headed to have found the valley of the Little Big Horn river, but think perhaps that six or seven miles more would have brought me to it"). As it turned out, he did do the right thing, but the feeling one gets is that he's not wholly convinced of that in his own mind. He's a good and conscientious man who's had a disaster befall his regiment; he's not the sort who can just shrug and move on. It's inevitable for him to keep nagging away at all the "what ifs", however well justified his actions. (Same as with his killing of the Indian boy at Washita, which still strikes a raw nerve when Custer taunts him with it in 1876.)
Moylan tells of how Weir asked him whether, when he was Adjutant, Custer ever took him into his confidence about his plans. Moylan replied no, he simply ordered him to tell such-and-such an officer to go to such-and-such a place, with no explanation provided. Given that command style, Benteen couldn't be sure of what Custer's intentions for him had been; he'd have to ask himself, however unfairly, whether his independent decision had been in tune with Custer's unspoken plan or not.
At any rate, that's my reading of how Benteen's mind was working. I find it hard to hit on any other explanation for his emphasis on keeping the note, which in many people's eyes damns him on several counts. Sharp as he was, he must have seen the accusations it laid him open to. Yet still he felt it bolstered his case. But of course, if anyone has a better explanation for why he felt this, I'd be glad to hear it.
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Post by clw on Aug 18, 2008 6:06:21 GMT -6
In Benteen's official report, 4 July, he states.... The directions I received from LC Custer were, to move with my command to the left, to send well mounted officers with about six men who would ride rapidly to a line of bluffs about five miles to our left and front , with instructions to report at once to me if anything of Indians could be seen from that point. I was to follow the movement of this detachment as rapidly as possible... the other instructions were, that if in my judgment there was nothing to be seen of Indians, valleys, etc., in the directions I was going, to return with the battalion to the trail the command was following. This is exactly what he did. Do you think he made up Custer's orders to cover his actual actions? If so, Gibson told the same 'lie' in his 4 July letter to his wife. I don't think returning to the trail was an 'independent decision'. I think he followed the orders he was given in this regard.
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tatanka
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Post by tatanka on Aug 18, 2008 7:23:24 GMT -6
clw. No mention of the pack train? Of course he wouldn't have received the "bring packs" note at that time.
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Post by clw on Aug 18, 2008 8:08:33 GMT -6
Tatanka ~ For your reference, this is what he says regarding the train... "I accordingly did so [return to the trail] reaching the trail just in advance of the pack-train. I pushed rapidly on, soon getting out of sight of the advance of the train, until reaching the morass, I halted to water the animals, who had been without water since about 8pm of the day before. This watering did not occassion the loss of fifteen minutes, and when I was moving out the advance of the train commenced watering at the morass."
"...a mile from the burning lodge I met a sergeant of the regiment with orders form LC Custer to the officer in charge of the rear-guard and train to bring it to the front with as great rapidity as was possible. Another mile on I met Trumpeter Morton [Martin] of my own company, with a written order...." He says after receiving the note and Martin having told him the "Indians had skedaddled, abandoning the village".... "Another mile and a half brought me in sight of the stream and plain in which were some of our dismounted men fighting, and Indians charging and recharging them in great numbers.... I then moved up to the bluffs and reported my command to Maj. M.A. Reno. I did not return for the pack-train because I deemed it perfectly safe where it was, and we could defend it, had it been threatened, from our position on the bluffs; and another thing, it savored too much of coffee-coolilng to return when I was sure a fight was progressing in the front, and deeming the train as safe without me."
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tatanka
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Post by tatanka on Aug 18, 2008 8:24:41 GMT -6
Why on earth would Martini tell him the Indians had "skedaddled"? Was he just echoing Custers' belief they would run away?
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Post by bc on Aug 18, 2008 10:02:41 GMT -6
I think we have to read Kanipe's message, Cooke's written note, and Martini's verbage together and in light of each other to fully understand the written message.
I just haven't concluded yet what was on Custer's mind when he sent Kanipe and Martini back that he needed the packs so bad especially if the vill was on the run. At the time of Kanipe, he probably knew the main part of the fight would be with him and Reno who needed the packs worse than Benteen was was still search to the south. When Martini was sent back, Custer had sight of the vill and probably decided there would not be any NAs further south that warranted Benteen's further movement that way. I just don't know if he had a more specific than general reason to have the packs brought up quickly.
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Post by elisabeth on Aug 18, 2008 10:58:19 GMT -6
clw, thanks for the quotes. No, I'm not suggesting he made it up (though there's no evidence that Gibson could have got his info from anyone but Benteen); just that he may later have questioned whether he'd been right to turn back when he did. As he describes the order, that decision was left to his judgement. Anyone in his position, and knowing the eventual outcome, would be bound to wonder whether that decision had been correct, I think.
The odd thing is how far he plays down this stated latitude to return in, for instance, his RCOI testimony. There, he more or less boasts of having disobeyed orders by doing so. Obviously it's part of his "Custer's orders were senseless" and "I, Benteen, alone saved the day" line; but it does conflict with his previous report. (Lee may have been onto some of this, questioning him closely about what other orders he might have had.)
I don't know the answer. Just that this particular issue remains a touchy subject with him for ages -- far more so, it seems, than whether he could or could not have "saved" Custer after joining Reno. It's his touchiness that makes one wonder.
bc -- do you think it could have been the very quietness of the village (as described by Martini) that influenced the second message? If they really thought (again as per Martini) that the bulk of the warriors were out hunting, that would leave the train vulnerable to any group that came across it. Or, and here we get into "what did Custer know?" territory: if he was aware that Reno was in trouble, he'd know there was nothing between a failing Reno and the train unless he put Benteen there. If Reno had retreated to Ford A as he'd intended, instead of being deflected to the bluffs, he'd have fallen back on the packs, thus leading the entire hornets' nest of warriors straight to them. Only suggestions, though ...
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Post by clw on Aug 18, 2008 11:24:10 GMT -6
I see your point Elizabeth. There was something that nagged at him and caused all the differences in his RCOI testimony. That may have been it, or it may have been that he knew he could have moved on more quickly once he returned to the trail. But I think all he could have managed had he done so was to die with Custer.
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tatanka
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Post by tatanka on Aug 18, 2008 11:39:41 GMT -6
I agree. There just too many Indians. The Indian casulties would undoubtedly have been higher but Benteen would not have prevented the eventual outcome.
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Post by conz on Aug 18, 2008 12:27:04 GMT -6
My impression is the fact that Custer had to send a note to Benteen at all, and that Cooke wrote "be quick" twice, is that Custer was PISSED at Benteen.
If Benteen had been where Custer thought he should be, that note probably would not have been written at all.
I can see Custer getting nervous, and saying "Where the HELL is Benteen?!" and having Cooke scribble out that frantic note.
It very well may be that Custer, upon hitting the high ground around SSR, looked back and was dismayed at how far back Benteen's and the pack train's dust clouds were. Time for them all to gallop!
Of course, he may have also been inspired by the self-assessment that he had just made an error in planning by sending Benteen out there in the first place, and he's trying to rectify that error, if possible.
Between Custer's bad planning, and Benteen's deliberate pace, a grave danger has resulted, with Reno, ALONE, now heavily engaged down in the valley.
Clair
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Post by clw on Aug 18, 2008 12:37:49 GMT -6
Yep.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Aug 18, 2008 13:21:35 GMT -6
As usual, conz has it wrong. The packs are mentioned twice, not 'be quick.' It's that West Point training. At least he isn't fabricating "come quick" as has been claimed.
It's damning that with so few words, Custerphiles still feel the need to change them to what they wished they said, and as with all the "come quick" variants that aren't true, they never note the error. Conz courageously has found a new error of his own to try and implant, and the Custerphiles ignore it if they recognize it as such at all. Defer to the wannabe Hussar and he might pet them.
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Post by clw on Aug 18, 2008 13:59:10 GMT -6
Totally overlooked that error because I am absolutely the Queen of the Custerphiles. I have a picture of him over my bed. I spend every day, yearning to go back in time so I can meet my dream boy. He never made a mistake. Not one in his whoooole life.
In case no one recognizes it, that was sarcasm.
Don't mess with me today dc.
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tatanka
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Post by tatanka on Aug 18, 2008 14:02:39 GMT -6
You two should get married!
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Post by clw on Aug 18, 2008 14:11:06 GMT -6
Best laugh I've had in weeks!!! Just what I needed to cut the tension around my little spot in Flordia. Believe me, there's plenty. Bare store shelves, no gas, no hay, phone ringing off the hook -- FCS, it's only a Tropical Storm. But I'll be glad when it's over.
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