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Post by Yan Taylor on Jun 10, 2011 9:25:42 GMT -6
Sorry Quincannon I have just noticed your message, computers and me dont mix that well, I have recently been taking lessons from my younger more hip family members.
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Post by fred on Jun 10, 2011 10:55:32 GMT -6
... Custer had 12 Companies, what was the difference between a Troop and a Company? None. Cavalry always referred to their "companies" as "troops." The term "troop" rather than "company" was officially adopted in... what?... the 1880's I believe. Infantry has companies... and buglers; cavalry has troops... and trumpeters. The TO&E (Table of Organization and Equipment) strength for an 1876 U. S. cavalry regiment was 888 officers and men: Authorized strength, TO&E, 1876 cavalry regiment: 1 colonel 1 lieutenant colonel 3 majors 12 captains 1 adjutant (LT) 1 quartermaster (LT) 12 1LT 12 2LT 1 sergeant major 1 quartermaster sergeant 1 saddler SGT 1 chief trumpeter 1 chief musician 12 first sergeants 60 SGT 48 CPL 24 TMP 24 farriers/blacksmiths 12 saddlers 12 wagoners 648 PVTs Total officers and enlisted personnel: 888 Each "company" was assigned: 1 captain 1 first lieutenant 1 second lieutenant 1 first sergeant 5 sergeants 4 corporals 2 trumpeters 1 farrier 1 blacksmith 1 saddler 1 wagoner 54 privates Total: 3 officers and 70 enlisted men. The largest contingent at the Little Big Horn was L Company (Calhoun) with 2 officers and 57 enlisted men. The smallest was K Company (Godfrey) with 2 officers, 41 enlisted personnel. Both companies gave up men for extra duty and the pack train, which meant they went into battle with even fewer. Best wishes, Fred. |
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Post by quincannon on Jun 10, 2011 11:13:35 GMT -6
Ian: Our use of troop and squadron are a little different than those used by the Mother Country and many other armies. Just adding to Fred
Today and then a Troop was a company sized unit. In the UK it is a platoon sized unit
Today a squadron is a four to six troop unit(exception a tank company in a squadron is always refered to as a company {usually Company D} and the howitzer battery is refered to as just that. {example Howitzer Battery, 1st Squadron, 3rd Armored Cavalry}) In 1876 a squadron was two companies (later troops) and there were six squadrons in a regiment. Each squadron was commanded by the senior captain. Typically 2 squadrons would form a battalion under one of the three majors in the regiment. This was quite often modified in the field to meet tactical situations as was done at LBH In the UK a squadron is a company sized unit
In the US a cavalry regiment today is a brigade sized unit of 3 recon squadrons, an air cavalry squadron, and a support squadron along with enabler companies like combat engineers and military intelligence. In the UK a cavalry regiment is a battalion sized organization.
There is also the U S Army Regimental System that is similar to that it the UK but not quite the same. When I have about six hours to write I will try to explain that "balls up" if you have the intestinal fortitude.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jun 11, 2011 6:15:23 GMT -6
They are still doing a fine Job.
Regards Yan.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jun 27, 2011 4:00:58 GMT -6
Was a Company broken down into squads commanded by a Sgt or Corporal ?.
Regards Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 27, 2011 7:05:23 GMT -6
Ian: My knowledge of internals is limited to the the 20th and 21st centuries. That said I think they were, and somewhere around here I have Cooke's Cavalry Tactics and I will look. The go to guy on organization is RCH on the other board. I have never seen him here. He knows his stuff.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jun 27, 2011 7:10:30 GMT -6
That must be the sister site I didn't know existed, Thanks Quincannon.
Regards Ian.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 1, 2011 7:27:41 GMT -6
Has anyone heard of these men:
Crp T Hagan (E Coy)
Trp W Huber (E Coy)
Its just that I have 35 men in total for E Coy, and if these men were in it, I only have to find one more.
And this guy:
Trp H Jones (I Coy)
I am one short in I Coy and I hope its him.
Last ones:
Trp J Duggan (L Coy)
Trp P McHugh (L Coy)
I am two short in L Coy and again I hope its them.
Thanks for any help.
Regards Ian.
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Post by wild on Jul 1, 2011 8:16:59 GMT -6
You will note when perusing Fred's breakdown of the 7th organisation the lack of an armourer.700 Muskets and no means of adjusting the sights or clearing a jam.
Says a multitude about marksmanship in the regiment.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 1, 2011 8:37:49 GMT -6
I wonder if this is the reason why the Indian casualty figure is so low, maybe they shot to high, having said that I have seen from data that the Indians were not that hot with a rifle over long distance, I wonder how many Indians were killed by pistol fire from close range, when they finally got close enough to rush the Troopers.
Regards Ian.
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Post by bc on Jul 1, 2011 12:27:16 GMT -6
Has anyone heard of these men: Crp T Hagan (E Coy) Trp W Huber (E Coy) Its just that I have 35 men in total for E Coy, and if these men were in it, I only have to find one more. And this guy: Trp H Jones (I Coy) I am one short in I Coy and I hope its him. Last ones: Trp J Duggan (L Coy) Trp P McHugh (L Coy) I am two short in L Coy and again I hope its them. Thanks for any help. Regards Ian. Order Fred's new book and it will have all the information you need on the subject and the packers as well. I have an open tab in IE set on McFarland Publishing and check every day for a publishing date. As soon as it shows a date, I'll go pitch my tent again out by the mail box (even in this 108 degree temps). Website is as follows where you can pre-order the book. Only costs a few quid. www.mcfarlandpub.com/book-2.php?id=978-0-7864-6289-6bc |
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Post by quincannon on Jul 1, 2011 13:30:11 GMT -6
Wild: Blacksmiths and Farriers old son. Banging on one piece of metal is just like another, isn't it? Of course with 15 rounds a month to practice with it did not make much difference anyway. Even if they had Annie Oakley adjusting the sights for them they probably still could not hit the broad side of a barn with that paltry amount of practice rounds.
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Post by quincannon on Jul 1, 2011 13:34:44 GMT -6
Britt: I am surprised at 108 degrees. We are warm, but nowhere near that. Maybe you should move you and your mailbox out here to far western Kansas. I look forward to Fred's book also, as well as the one that seems to be in the more than rumor stage.
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Post by bc on Jul 1, 2011 15:27:41 GMT -6
Britt: I am surprised at 108 degrees. We are warm, but nowhere near that. Maybe you should move you and your mailbox out here to far western Kansas. I look forward to Fred's book also, as well as the one that seems to be in the more than rumor stage. It's 108 degrees now. Hot and dry. I've been trimming horse and burro hooves this week and they are as hard as a rock. Not doing much with the knife and mainly relying on the nippers and rasp. Three down and one to go. The onery one. During the Washita trip at the lbha conference, our bus arrived early at the Custer knoll overlook. The temperatures were in the 105 to 108 degree range in the area and the NPS had previously posted a sign advising people not to walk the 1.5 mile trail. While we were waiting our turn for the NPS presentation a number of congregated at the trail head. Jim Donovan took one look at the sign and said I'm going. So a bunch of us took off. I was the only one who was carrying the trail intrepretative guide and became the group's tour guide as we got to each numbered post. The river bed at the time was only about ten feet across and the water stream was only a trickle about a foot wide easy to step across. The water was cold and tasty. Unlike the LBH, the Washita river valley is only about 3 miles or so across from rim to rim with the camp in the middle. When Custer had his troops hidden up on the ridge in an area of knolls and ravines, they were within spitting distance of the village. When someone in the Cheyenne village fired a shot, Custer had to start his attack early. Myers and Thompson's battalions moving to the right ended up arriving after the vill was taken but their route was to cover the west end if the valley and the south ridge but their delay in getting there allowed NAs to escape to the south west. Elliot moved to the east and was to attack the east end. He didn't have to move as far along the ridge/bluffs to the east so he was late getting there as well but helped to mop up. Custer charged the vill with his battalion on horses from the north. However he did station Cooke and his select group of sharpshooters from the various companies and the NA scouts as skirmishers on his left up close to the river to cover his charge. Cookie and crew fired into the village and cut off any Cheyennes trying to move to their left. Elliot's late arrival allowed some NAs to escape to the left. Once he got through the vill and up towards the top of the south ridge line where the overlook is, he took off after fleeing NAs going to the east. His death spot is only about a mile east of the village but is viewable from the upper knolls where HQ was and where they rounded up ponies to killed them. There were trees along the river and Sgt Major Creek that would block direct view of Elliot but they probably heard the firing from there. Elliot's problem is that they lost their horses and their dead bodies laying in tall grass and snow along the the line of trees couldn't be seen. Had their mounts not been taken, then they probably could have been seen from the Custer HQ area at the overlook. Custer did send Myers and a company to look for Elliot. There had to be a clear trail in the snow for Elliot and the escaping NAs. However Sandy Barnard believes that Myers ran scared at the sight of approaching warriors from the east and didn't ride far enough to see Elliot and his men. Godfrey was sent on a scout to the east but he went along the north ridge going east a couple miles at the start of the fight (he apparently wasin't in on the attack). Apparently because they were laying in the snow and grass without horses, Godfrey didn't see Elliot either when he returned on his scout but then he had NAs on his tail as well and he was fighting a withdrawal as I understand it. The Elliot death site was in viewable distance from anyone up a ways on the ridgelines/bluffs on both the north and south side of the river. The river valley itself was probably only about 5-6 miles long and about 3 miles wide. Not much of valley in retrospect. At the west end the river turned north so the bluffls kinda closed that end off for viewing purposes. At the east end where Godfrey rode to the river turned south making the line of bluffs to the east where it turned would block the view going east. That line of bluffs to the east where the river turns south also blocked the view of the other NA camps further east where the river was generally looping in a southwest direction. Black Kettle's vill was in the middle of the valley area down by the river which was narrow enough for Custer to jump his horse over it. (This ends my Washita primer) Fred's second book will be great. Everything depends upon the timeline and his will be much better than Gray's. bc |
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Post by zekesgirl on Jul 1, 2011 16:00:32 GMT -6
BC, which bus were you on? I don't think any of my bus went outside, let alone on the trail.
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