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Post by doyle1876 on Feb 25, 2008 14:54:44 GMT -6
If Indian fighting is a piece of cake, Custer sure didn't get ice cream with his! But I agree, underestimating the enemy was a major factor here. After all, he expected them to run. Now, just for the sake of argument (she said cautiously, remembering her early infatuation with David Humphreys Miller), if Custer DID ride down to MTF and get shot, what do you think they actually would have done? If Custer was shot early in the battle at Ford B or MTF, Keogh would have taken over command. The likelihood is that a dead or mortally wounded Custer would have been found two days later beside Keogh at Calhoun Hill. I can't imagine Tom bringing his wounded and dying brother further along the ridges and over bluffs - it would not have been his call. It's too stereotypical to suggest that the Custer mafia overruled the next in command, Keogh, and pressed on with the attack
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Post by gocav76 on Feb 25, 2008 15:11:44 GMT -6
Doyle1876, My thoughts in recent months is that perhaps George Custer was shot and badly wounded upon returning from his scout of Ford D. Thus Keogh would not have been aware of the situation,and left to fend for himself. On LSH confusion would become apparent and before things can be sorted out-Keogh is in big trouble.
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Post by Melani on Feb 25, 2008 20:44:46 GMT -6
Doyle, if Keogh had been wounded at MTF, and withdrawn to Calhoun Hill, then how did he end up down in that weird, indefensible area down the back of the ridge?
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Post by douglas on Feb 25, 2008 21:15:24 GMT -6
Melani, I don't agree with Doyle, but wounded or not that is where he ended. Maybe he was forced into that position?
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Post by Melani on Feb 26, 2008 9:06:15 GMT -6
One possibility is that Keogh, still in one piece, charged down there to meet Crazy Horse's guys coming from the east.
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Post by Jas. Watson on Feb 26, 2008 11:21:06 GMT -6
I guess this is a good a place as any to bring this up...but just what exactly is the evidence--the real primary source, first person credible evidence--that implies that GAC was wounded or killed at the ford? I know of an Indian account of a buckskin clad figure taking a hit. But is there any more corroborating evidence or reports? (Besides what I've heard the Realbirds say.) In other words does this really have to be considered or is it another piece of LBH 'lore' like so many other things. Fred, you're a good 'source' man, what do you have? Elisabeth, you can maybe shed light too? Anyone?
Jas~
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Post by wild on Feb 26, 2008 11:50:01 GMT -6
Jas When they find the black box it will show that Custer was under immense psycological stress and incapable of leadership. Now do you want me to outline the case for you?
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Post by elisabeth on Feb 26, 2008 11:51:48 GMT -6
Not sure I can shed much ... but as I understand it, the "ford" is unidentified. As likely to be Ford D, or even C, as B.
I think it's White Cow Bull, the original "been everywhere, man" figure, who spread this story.
Nothing that happened after Ford B makes any sense if such a thing had occurred, which I'm tempted to suspect may be a clue as to the veracity of the tale. I'm sure (I think ...) that no further travel to the north would have happened if Custer had been hit. Either (1) he'd have been taken back towards support, or (2) a defensive position would have been assumed, and/or (3) we'd see Keogh as second-in-command taking over control, thus Cooke and standard-bearer with him. None of this happens. So it really does seem a stretch.
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Post by bc on Feb 26, 2008 13:39:39 GMT -6
When they find the black box it will show .... I hope they find that black box while the gun inside is still smoking! ;D
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Post by wild on Feb 26, 2008 13:50:41 GMT -6
OK Jas seeing as how you twisted my arm. Custer is a laughing stock back in Washington. He has to go on bended knee to get command of the regiment. Refuses other cavalry unit and gatling gun battery as supports for the 7th. Loses face to Benteen in front of other officers. Dismisses Benteen's advice to keep regiment together. Dismisses scouts intel re size of village. Arrives Weir Point sees village.Oh s***e.---No chance ,cannot go back to Benteen .Oh s***e get Benteen up here. A foaming Custer is last seen waving his hat and shouting I'll show them.
Now for you who see a similarity between the LBH and the Washita. Custer attacked a camp of 51 lodges 350 Indians men, women children and aged with a force of 700 troops.His force was not divided contrary to myth and all units were under his control at all times.
Post MTC Custer was either dead or mad .
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Post by crzhrs on Feb 26, 2008 14:02:44 GMT -6
Acts contrite at Officers Call and asks for "cooperation"-- Yells at brother Tom over who moved the command-- Claims he can't see anything from Crows' Nest-- Yells at Boyer when Boyer says there'll be more Indians than anyone thought-- Yells at Rees for not going after fleeing Indians-- Rebukes Benteen when Benteen suggests command should stay together-- Gives the most important message of the LBH to Italian immigrant who has poor command of English--
Hmm--looks like Custer is a bit edgy!
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Post by crzhrs on Feb 26, 2008 14:22:12 GMT -6
<I do quite like Curley's story of Bouyer saying at Calhoun Hill, "That man will get us all killed".>
I often wonder if Boyer & Custer were arguing about what the command should do.
Did Boyer advise Custer that the command should fall back--there were too many Indians--it was not a good place for an attack, let alone a defense?
There has always been some speculation about a Boyer/Custer "feud"--Custer even admonished Boyer when he told him there would be more Indians than the command could handle.
Maybe Boyer was right about Custer--was Custer not thinking properly at crunch time and Boyer trying to tell him to stop while they could and fall back?
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Post by wild on Feb 26, 2008 14:47:00 GMT -6
crzhrs Custer just cannot bring himself to go back to Benteen. Custer can only go back to Washington with a victory.
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Post by Jas. Watson on Feb 26, 2008 14:48:48 GMT -6
Yes, yes, I know Custer was acting a little dodgy--I don't think there is much disputing that, I certainly don't. My question perhaps should have been raised in a seperate thread (I might re-raise it, or better yet simply repost it elsewhere) is whether the 'Custer shot at the ford' business has any real credibility. If it doesn't, then it might save a lot of speculation in that direction.
Jas~
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Post by doyle1876 on Feb 26, 2008 15:00:01 GMT -6
Doyle, if Keogh had been wounded at MTF, and withdrawn to Calhoun Hill, then how did he end up down in that weird, indefensible area down the back of the ridge? Melani, I don't think that happened either but sometimes to on order to confirm one's own hypothesis, other theories have to be explored and debunked. I do think Calhoun Hill may have been HQ but Custer pushed north for two reasons - 1. To spread the warriors field of battle as much as he could, making Benteen's passage less hindered; 2. To capture some of the non-combatants (In times of immense pressure, the mind seeks a comfort zone - this tactic worked before) Keogh was left to maximise Calhoun Hill's natural defenses which, it seems by company and corpse positions, he did well. As for Keogh's place of death, I always felt, after reading many Indian testimonies, that Keogh led some of Co. I on a charge to aid the retreat of the remnants of C & L. He was the officer turning his horse many times to aid the leaderless troopers of C & L, changing a rout into an organised fall back. As Keogh made it back to ridge where Porter would have been waiting with skirmishers, near Horse Holders Ravine, Crazy Horse and his mounted warriors were making their series of charges against the dismounted horses. Again Keogh attempts to take control of the situation but the horses are running away and the companies are all mixed together, some in a state of exhaustion and fear. On the ridge above the ravine while rallying the troopers, Comanche & Keogh are shot. Comanche rears up and Keogh is unseated, knee shattered by the bullet. Sergeants Varden and Bustard along with Lloyd and Patton rally to their Captain. Cpl. Wild is shot down feet from this small grouping. They have all dismounted to make a small brave stand but the mounted and running warriors overwhelm them. Fall back becomes a rout again all the way to LSH. Keogh either receives his head wound now or...... Having passed out due to the pain/blood loss, regains consciousness in the dying throes of the battle and is the officer that comes around, wildly glaring at all the pilfering warriors near the dead troopers. Half propped up and still holding his customised pistols he lets off a few shots before the pistol is grabbed from him and used to deliver the fatal head wound. I think I have used up all the poetic license entitled to me on this message board in just one post!! BTW - I remain convinced that Yates was the officer shot at MTF as he tried to take companies E & F across. That's why he ended up on LSH while the majority of his company E were found in Deep Ravine
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