|
Post by conz on Feb 26, 2008 15:12:50 GMT -6
BTW - I remain convinced that Yates was the officer shot at MTF as he tried to take companies E & F across. That's why he ended up on LSH while the majority of his company E were found in Deep Ravine Caution though...remember Yates was a squadron commander. The company commander for E was Smith. Yates would not necessarily be with E Co in any movement...he would be where he felt was necessary for his entire squadron. Similarly, Keogh was not commanding Co I...that was not his job. He was running the squadron that occupied Calhoun Hill. Clair
|
|
|
Post by doyle1876 on Feb 26, 2008 15:20:43 GMT -6
BTW - I remain convinced that Yates was the officer shot at MTF as he tried to take companies E & F across. That's why he ended up on LSH while the majority of his company E were found in Deep Ravine Caution though...remember Yates was a squadron commander. The company commander for E was Smith. Yates would not necessarily be with E Co in any movement...he would be where he felt was necessary for his entire squadron. Similarly, Keogh was not commanding Co I...that was not his job. He was running the squadron that occupied Calhoun Hill. Clair Very true. I continue to learn
|
|
|
Post by wild on Feb 26, 2008 16:11:17 GMT -6
To spread the warriors field of battle as much as he could,That's fine if you have 1500 men against 210.But you don't spread your men when you are outnumbered 7 to 1
|
|
|
Post by doyle1876 on Feb 26, 2008 17:07:36 GMT -6
To spread the warriors field of battle as much as he could,That's fine if you have 1500 men against 210.But you don't spread your men when you are outnumbered 7 to 1 Hard to acquaint the two on the basis of numbers alone - the troopers did not have their wifes and children to worry about. Plus as Conz, I think, said, the troopers considered themselves a superior fighting force capable of holding off a greater number. Hindsight tells a different story but as to a frame of mind on the 25th, its hard to assume Custer went mad because he became impetuous and wished to trust his own instincts, following his initiative, pressing ahead with an attack against the odds. Sounds 'normal' Custer to me.
|
|
|
Post by Melani on Feb 26, 2008 19:54:28 GMT -6
Doyle, I like your scenario, poetic license and all. Except the Indian accounts don't have him getting off a few shots before the pistol was grabbed away and turned on him. But I think a few shots first will really add a lot to the movie version!
I am intrigued by Elisabeth's suggestion that dehydration and heat affected Custer's decision-making capability. That's not quite the same as going nuts ala Little Big Man. But things like that have certainly had an effect on other people--the Franklin expedition comes to mind. They were all suffering from lead-poisoning from the solder on the canned food, and this undoubtedly contributed to decisions like taking a writing desk along when they attempted to walk out over the ice. Probably nobody in Custer's command was in really good shape physically, wearing wool uniforms in 100-degree heat, little sleep, and so on.
|
|
|
Post by bc on Feb 26, 2008 20:07:05 GMT -6
Caution though...remember Yates was a squadron commander. The company commander for E was Smith. Yates would not necessarily be with E Co in any movement...he would be where he felt was necessary for his entire squadron. Similarly, Keogh was not commanding Co I...that was not his job. He was running the squadron that occupied Calhoun Hill. Clair The squadron commands would also be contingent upon if, when, which, and where Custer was with the squadrons. Whenever he was with a squadron, he was commanding.
|
|
|
Post by conz on Feb 27, 2008 7:51:22 GMT -6
The squadron commands would also be contingent upon if, when, which, and where Custer was with the squadrons. Whenever he was with a squadron, he was commanding. Yes, that is true in a sense, although he was still not the "commander" of the squadron. For instance, when Custer accompanies Yates' squadron away from Keogh's, Yates does not revert to leading his company again. Rather, he rides beside Custer, and normally Custer will tell Yates what to do with his squadron ("Dismount E Co here and take F down to see what the ford is like...") and not give orders to the company commanders directly. Unless it is an emergency... Similarly, if later Custer took Yates' squadron north over LSH towards Ford D, he would have told Keogh something like "hold this spot while I recon another ford...keep those guys off our back and watch for Benteen...I'll call you forward if I find a good crossing"; and not tell Keogh to put L Co on Calhoun Hill, with C and I Cos on either flank....that would be Keogh's job. Clair
|
|
|
Post by crzhrs on Feb 27, 2008 10:22:13 GMT -6
A lot of the soldiers eventually ended up with "lead poisoning"
|
|
|
Post by fred on Feb 27, 2008 15:55:34 GMT -6
Similarly, if later Custer took Yates' squadron north over LSH towards Ford D, he would have told Keogh something like "hold this spot while I recon another ford...keep those guys off our back and watch for Benteen...I'll call you forward if I find a good crossing"; and not tell Keogh to put L Co on Calhoun Hill, with C and I Cos on either flank....that would be Keogh's job. Boy, oh boy! Do old soldiers think alike here!Best wishes, Fred.
|
|
|
Post by runaheap on Aug 22, 2008 8:53:53 GMT -6
This scenario is predicated on the command separation into wings. I think Custer was in direct command of C,I&L. I suppose I'm drawn to this conclusion by location of Officer remains, either that, or Keogh goes down early! Maybe Custer is having a "Bad Hair" day (or is it "Loose your Hair" day). Organized resistence, other than Calhoun hill is non-existant, and if you want to accept Fox, and the archeological summary, he pretty much supports it. Things happened pretty fast, example: If you accept 28-30 cassings per position on the skirmish line at Calhoun, and the ability to fire three rounds per minute, it's over in 8/9 minutes. Any other cassings with the same firing pin conclusions or probably being fired by NDN's. This whole thing is a rout!
|
|
|
Post by Yan Taylor on Jun 9, 2011 8:39:19 GMT -6
I am a new commer to this site, and if Benteen had just unloaded as much ammo has he could and gave each man double, both he and Weir (4 x Companies) could have left the 43 Trooper packers with Reno and made off to the sound of the guns, now I know that they were vastly outnumbered, but if the Indians were in a desperate fight to defeat Custer, what would they of made about 180 guys in blue attacking there rear, would they have the command structure to issue an order in the haet of battle to devide there forces in to two attacking forces and sustain two attacks ?, plus they would not be able to count how many Troopers were behind them and it may off taken the heat of Custer, I know its allright me saying this in the comfort of my home on the banks of the river mersey in England but its just a thought and I would like to share it with you all on this great site. Regards Ian.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Jun 9, 2011 9:34:25 GMT -6
Ian: I think the answer is - it depends.
First it depends on timing. If Benteen attacks when Keogh is almost finished and Custer is decisively engaged it probably would have made litttle difference.
Second it depends on when Benteen is observed. He would not have the advantage of a covered and concealed avenue of approach, so given that there would be time for the hostiles to re-orient, and honor the emerging threat.
Third it depends on what manner Benteen chooses to attack. If he attacks mounted then he runs the risk of being swallowed up in a sea of hostiles, therefore negating the shock effect as well as loosing command and control. If he chooses to move forward, dismount, and attack by fire, he just might succeed in drawing some of the hostiles off and reducing the pressure on Custer. This last choice would probably be the one I would choose. By doing this he would be able to retain command and control, take advantage of his longer range weapons, and force the hostiles to do something. What that something is might be fuel for further discussion.
Fourth, there are those who refuse to believe that the hostiles were capable of fighting on two fronts at the same time. While I cannot think of one example of them doing so, at the same time I do not believe that this is cast in stone. Men in battle often do what is forced upon them, not what they wish to do, not what is advantagous to do, but rather what must be done. Lack of command and control above the level of warrior society is a disadvantage in a battle of this magnitude of size and scope. That is not to say that these folks could not rise to the occasion. They obviously did on Battle Ridge, so life can be full of unpleasant surprises based upon preconceived notions.
So the key factors are when, where, and how.
|
|
|
Post by Yan Taylor on Jun 10, 2011 4:44:24 GMT -6
Thanks Quincannon, Do you think that Custers order to box all the Sabres took away what was the main close combat weapon of any Cavalry (it cant run out of ammo). one other question why was there no J Company ?.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Jun 10, 2011 8:17:17 GMT -6
Ian: I am quite old fashion about these things. I never surrender an option, so yes were it me I would not have boxed the sabres. That said, Custer was the commander, and it was he who was giving the orders.
These is no Company J because of when the lettering system was established in 1816 the letters I and J were identical in script, therefore J was not used. You did not ask about Company Q but I will add something anyway. Company Q was a general term used for all of the soldiers that were dismounted somehow or awaiting new mounts. In the infantry the term was used for miscreants of various sorts in trouble with the commander - "that soldier is looking for a transfer to Company Q"
Also be advised that in the two remaining cavalry regiments that we have organized on the old 12 company (troop) basis you will find Troops N-O-P-Q-R-S-T. These are modern additions mainly to accomodate the air cavalry squadron or 4th squadron.
Hope this is of some help.
Have you checked you PM's at the top of the page??
|
|
|
Post by Yan Taylor on Jun 10, 2011 9:21:37 GMT -6
Thanks Quincannon, I have allways wondered about that, another thing whist we are on this subject, I haer that Custer had 12 Companies, what was the difference between a Troop and a Company ?, also was a full strength Company around 60 all ranks, Custer was really under strength his Companies ranged from 35 to 45 men on average. Thanks Again. Regards Ian.
|
|