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Post by elisabeth on Feb 25, 2008 3:33:31 GMT -6
And Custer had probably had less sleep than almost anyone else, with his trip(s) to the Crow's Nest while others were resting. He might have been able to bounce back from extreme fatigue when he was younger, but by this point he's effectively hitting middle age; he could be more drained than he realises or admits.
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Post by doyle1876 on Feb 25, 2008 3:44:02 GMT -6
Liz In Custer's case I'm speculating it was a mental break down---all the ingredians are there and a foaming Custer is less visible than a bleeding Custer. Vern Smalley in Little Bighorn Mysteries brings up the notion that the terrible heat of the day could have affected Custer's and others' judgment. Heatstroke is a danger, especially when exerting one's self. They probably were dehydrated through lack of drinking water, sweating, (especially if they'd put their jackets on expecting combat) and that famous Montana lack of humidity. It's not unusual to exceed 100 degrees in June. Several accounts mention the heat. What is the current recommendation for fluids when exercising in dry climates...something like a quart an hour ? Ruth For each 1% of body weight lost due to dehydration, your performance slips by about 2%, and a meagre 2% loss in weight can force your heart rate and body temperature to spiral upward, making strenuous exercise almost impossible to carry out.
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Post by crzhrs on Feb 25, 2008 7:36:53 GMT -6
Does Custer suddenly loss control of his faculties?
Did anyone mention that Custer was losing it?
The only mention of Custer not being "right" was at Officers' Call when he sounded not himself, asking for cooperation (Wallace?)
Martini & Kanipe never mentioned Custer being off his rocker as he approached the village. In fact Custer was said to be optimistic and confident, even saying they would get through with the Indians and return to their post.
Of course, once the situation became dire anything is possible--
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Post by fred on Feb 25, 2008 8:08:47 GMT -6
For what it's worth, I had always read the man was a notorious "workaholic," though the term was certainly not used in those days. Supposedly, he could get by on a lot less sleep than almost anyone. It's sort of like a "fast-walking" horse, I guess.
To be honest, I don't see it as a factor.
Too many Indians.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Jas. Watson on Feb 25, 2008 9:12:00 GMT -6
I like the theory of a foaming Custer. I'm not at all sure that it is what happened, but I like the theory anyway. That of course coupled with, as Fred says, just plain too many Indians. Jas~
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Post by conz on Feb 25, 2008 9:20:23 GMT -6
Custer went through the entire Civil War just fine. I don't think any conditions in Montana that month degraded his faculties, IMHO.
Indian fighting is a piece of cake, compared to the Civil War conditions. That is the root cause for why we underestimated the danger sometimes.
Clair
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Post by Melani on Feb 25, 2008 9:50:31 GMT -6
If Indian fighting is a piece of cake, Custer sure didn't get ice cream with his! But I agree, underestimating the enemy was a major factor here. After all, he expected them to run. Now, just for the sake of argument (she said cautiously, remembering her early infatuation with David Humphreys Miller), if Custer DID ride down to MTF and get shot, what do you think they actually would have done?
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Post by crzhrs on Feb 25, 2008 9:56:33 GMT -6
Fighting Indians was entirely different than fighting the Confederates.
Distances were far greater and the terrain was mostly unknown. Logistics were a factor (ask Cooke and his Horsemeat March), Indians could appear suddenly in your front, then disappear, the budget for the military was far less, it was an unpopular war in the East with much controversy over tactics.
There was no surrendering to Indians, if you lost a battle and died, not only were you dead, but you got chopped up to boot.
And that was on a good day!
Fighting Indians a piece of cake? Hardly!
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Post by Jas. Watson on Feb 25, 2008 10:14:41 GMT -6
The foaming Custer isn't so much about whether it's Indians or Confederates he's fighting, but about his current 'career' situation. He REALLY needed some positive splash to make a comeback, and when he spied that village that wasn't running he saw that maybe dying was the least of his problems.
Jas~
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Post by elisabeth on Feb 25, 2008 11:02:08 GMT -6
I wouldn't go so far as to say that he deliberately chose to fall on his sword like a noble Roman -- but Jas. is probably right that he had no option but to go for broke at this stage. Apart from his parlous career situation (and the money problems waiting for him back home) he had two additional factors that could have weighed on his decision-making at this point. (1) He'd just denounced Reno both to Terry and in the public prints for not attacking a village when he had the chance, so he'd look pretty silly failing to do so himself; and (2) he must have known full well that, for whatever good reasons, he'd departed from Terry's plan in choosing first to follow the Indians' trail directly, and then to attack on the 25th before Gibbon's column could be in position. Only a victory would extricate him from these two holes. A withdrawal or retreat, however sensible, would leave him with some extremely awkward questions to answer. In a way, he'd boxed himself in even before the Indians did it for him ...
Re Melani's question: I tend to assume that the obvious thing would be to fight their way back the way they'd come, given that they'd know from Boston that Benteen and the packs were on their back-trail. Or if the opposition to the south was too great, to withdraw to the nearest high ground (N-C? Calhoun?) and fort up. But ... it's only just dawned on me that they weren't entirely free agents. As far as they (most likely) knew, Reno was still in the valley waiting for support, and if they withdrew merely to tend a shot Custer, they'd be hanging Reno's battalion out to dry. So I slightly wonder whether they mightn't have continued the attack anyway -- possibly with even greater gung-ho "win one for the Gipper!" motivation -- while leaving maybe one company to defend the wounded/dead Custer and his weeping relatives in some semi-defensible place, e.g. the knoll by the river. The Custer defenders mightn't have been troubled too much by Indians if the main force was attacking the village directly; everyone would have swarmed back west over the river to protect their relatives. Result: probably much the same, but in the village rather than on the ridges ...
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Post by conz on Feb 25, 2008 14:15:29 GMT -6
If Indian fighting is a piece of cake, Custer sure didn't get ice cream with his! But I agree, underestimating the enemy was a major factor here. After all, he expected them to run. Even more than that, there was no force of Indians on earth that could defeat any cavalry regiment of that day. After all, Custer fought nearly 10,000 Confederate cavalrymen for four straight years and if THEY couldn't stop him... Pick him up and ride as quickly as possible straight back to the new commanding officer of the regiment...I have no doubts about that. This wasn't the case of a deliberate plan that could be executed by whomever was left standing. It was being called "on the fly," and when that commander goes down, you have no orders but to find the new commander and follow his new orders "on the fly." Clair
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Post by conz on Feb 25, 2008 14:18:25 GMT -6
Fighting Indians a piece of cake? Hardly! So YOU think...but those boys in the 7th were joking and eager to "get at them." Cavalrymen really didn't feel that way, or that confident, fighting Confederates. It was a grim moment to charge Stuart's, Lee's, Rosser's or Hampton's squadrons. Anyone would rather fight Indians any day...you had a MUCH higher chance of survival, in fact as well as perception, I believe, and I think they believed that, too. Clair
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Post by conz on Feb 25, 2008 14:22:26 GMT -6
The foaming Custer isn't so much about whether it's Indians or Confederates he's fighting, but about his current 'career' situation. He REALLY needed some positive splash to make a comeback, and when he spied that village that wasn't running he saw that maybe dying was the least of his problems. Jas~ For the record, I really don't think that this was ANY part of his thinking once he reached the divide. It was all tactical victory considerations at that point. Glory comes from just good Soldiering...accomplish the mission and the rest will follow, and I think Custer knew that. The implication of the way you state it is that Custer was doing anything that day due to outside influences that a normal Soldier would NOT have done for purely military considerations. I don't see that at all...he had a mission to accomplish, and any commander would have to do what Custer did to make that happen. Now you might be somewhat more cautious, or not split your force as much, but you still HAVE to attack into the middle of all those Indians...an officer simply didn't have any choice in this that day that I can see. Clair
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Post by Jas. Watson on Feb 25, 2008 14:38:46 GMT -6
conz, No that wan't my thinking...it was much more along the lines of what Elisabeth answered--minus the falling on his sword part, the result of my quip about dying being the least of his problems--didn't mean it that way. But I do think that GAC might have been taking more chances that day than another officer might have.
Jas~
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Post by doyle1876 on Feb 25, 2008 14:44:43 GMT -6
I never bought the idea that it was " This is not the end of the village, it's the middle!!!". Aahh, panic. Too much experience among the officers, all Civil war veterans used to facing large numbers of combatants.
What if Calhoun Hill was the original HQ, the base for operations and decisions?
Custer finally gets to see the village and the movements therein. Having heard his scouts and Varnum on Crows Nest, despite not seeing anything, Custer must have prepared his plan with the 'what if' scenario - what if there are more warriors that we have been informed of officially. Custer was never one to trust Indian agents!
Having decided to do a 'Washita' on the LBH village - attacks on a a number of fronts. Reno at one end of the village, Benteen mopping up to the left, he again splits his force with Keogh ordered to cross with C,I & L at Ford B. Custer and remainder of the command head further north.
At Ford B, Comanche and a buckskin-wearing Keogh sustain that wound - through Comanche's shoulder shattering Keogh's knee. The horse rears up throwing Keogh and temporarily halting the crossing. Keogh's command move back up to Calhoun where an immobile but still in command Keogh organises a text book defensive perimeter.
Custer, aware of what has happened, knows he is now fully committed to the offense and still decides that, as per Washita, going after the non-combatants is his best chance to recover the situation. But he can't find a crossing!!
Aware of the building pressure at Calhoun Hill through constant mounted messengers back and forth decides that he too must set up a defensive perimeter near or on LSH. E Company are still sent on the non-combatants/find a crossing mission.
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