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Post by doyle1876 on Feb 18, 2008 18:23:10 GMT -6
If I go with the following points - 1. The common theory that Custer realized that the village was bigger than anticipated and that he required Benteen to come to him with the pack train and.... 2. Custer assumed that Reno was still fighting in the valley and... 3. Away from Reno Hill, Calhoun Hill is probably the best defensive position on the battlefield
Why did Custer not establish Calhoun Hill as the site for the temporary HQ pending Benteen's arrival and a reuniting of the majority of the companies?
It was evident at that stage of the battle that the Indians were not running although the non-combatants, women & children were moving through the village away from the Reno fight. Realizing this, no warrior was 'skedaddling', priority would have been to strengthen the battalion before moving against the enemy. Custer could have taken time to create the corridor that most scholars think Companies C, I, & L ended up doing and get the packs & ammo into an area that could be well defended.
Just a thought.....OK take me apart
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Post by conz on Feb 19, 2008 7:52:50 GMT -6
I think that if Custer was intent on establishing a defensive position, he would indeed have established himself and his headquarters group on Calhoun Hill.
That he was found instead on LSH should tell us something.
Clair
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Post by mystic on Feb 23, 2008 18:15:46 GMT -6
Most likely because Custer went down to the river (Ford B)... and was wounded in the chest by a lucky Indian bullet... His command, traumatised by the event, made a quick decision to get him out of there and most likely to secure medical assistance from the river steamer, Far West, which was in a Northerly direction... after that confusion reigned... Custer was taken as far as LSH only to be killed by a round from his own revolver to the side of his temple delivered by Tom Custer at the very end...
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Post by fred on Feb 23, 2008 21:26:14 GMT -6
Are you sure of this?
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Post by alfuso on Feb 23, 2008 22:11:06 GMT -6
Most likely because Custer went down to the river (Ford B)... and was wounded in the chest by a lucky Indian bullet... His command, traumatised by the event, made a quick decision to get him out of there and most likely to secure medical assistance from the river steamer, Far West, which was in a Northerly direction... after that confusion reigned... Custer was taken as far as LSH only to be killed by a round from his own revolver to the side of his temple delivered by Tom Custer at the very end... No proper command would be traumatized by its commander's wounding/death. Custer's other officers were too good to crumble like that. And why would they go *away* from support with a dead or dying commander? They had no idea of just where the FAR WEST was. But wherever it was, it was MILES and MILES away. Custer would be very, very dead from a jaunt like that. Saner and closer support was on Reno Hill. alfuso
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Post by fred on Feb 24, 2008 7:15:16 GMT -6
alfuso--
Very well said, indeed. This has always been one of my big problems with Pennington's work. He has disintegration setting in right there at Ford B. In his scenario, Custer is outright killed or mortally wounded, and everyone panics. Yet you have old Civil War vets like Tom Custer, George Yates, and Algernon Smith there, you have Keogh sitting a mile back... these were not men prone to panic. Besides, even the younger officers had fought Indians. Then, what about the experienced NCOs? You can say what you want about the training, the language barriers, the relative youth of some of the privates, but these guys weren't going anywhere because ol' Georgie-boy got his butt shot, and certainly not to the "Far West."
Again, if you scrap your plans because your leader gets bumped off, and you decide to haul ass back, you retreat back, not forward. You go to where the nearest help is, not to some steamboat that may be where someone thinks it might be.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by elisabeth on Feb 24, 2008 7:24:37 GMT -6
Plus, as Pauldiing never ceased to complain, he was the only doctor with Gibbon's command -- whereas Custer's had Dr. Lord riding with HQ, and DeWolf and Porter just a short ride away. They'd know the Far West was a much poorer bet for medical treatment, even if they were certain where it was. It does not compute.
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Post by fred on Feb 24, 2008 7:38:42 GMT -6
That's the best argument I've heard yet, Elisabeth.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by wild on Feb 24, 2008 9:06:57 GMT -6
HQ on Calhoun hill has some merits.It's the furthest point North the column can go and still keep the back door open for the reserves but I'm not convienced.I think the backdoor is MTC and if the Indians are in this in any force nothing is going to get through. The command collasping because Custer is shot doesn't say much for the officer corps.It might just effect an attack but the unit would still function. What would be far more lethal to the command is a Custer off his head and the officers not knowing it. Custer's reputation and redemption depended on a resounding victory.So you have a commander with massive emotional baggage realizing he has fouled up and is snookered.Emotional baggage plus imminent defeat equals mental collapse.[see behavior of Reno,Moylan,Weir]
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Post by elisabeth on Feb 24, 2008 9:19:35 GMT -6
Wild, nice idea. And if we go with the conventional assumption that Yates' battalion was with Custer, while Keogh's was separated for whatever reason ... then you have the only known non-sycophant, who might see through his condition and do something to wrest command from him, parked too far back away from events to do anything until Custer's already made fatal decisions. Like it.
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Post by wild on Feb 24, 2008 9:40:49 GMT -6
Liz In air accident investigations one thing they alway look at is the mental health of the pilot.You will recall a crash near London some years ago when the pilot had a heart attack at the controls and his copilot a 19 year old was unable to control the plane.Well it was found that the pilot was under hugh emotional stress and the added stress of the take off brought on the heart attack. In Custer's case I'm speculating it was a mental break down---all the ingredians are there and a foaming Custer is less visible than a bleeding Custer.
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Post by wild on Feb 24, 2008 10:19:10 GMT -6
I have just been reading that the team who carried out extensive tests on the Turin Shroud have been examining the Cooke note and their preliminary findings are that a line was erased from the note.It actually read PS Bring pacs or we're f***ed
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Post by elisabeth on Feb 24, 2008 10:30:07 GMT -6
At the risk of taking unfair advantage of Fred's recently-stated principle of cherry-picking the things that make sense from those that don't ... I have to confess that I do quite like Curley's story of Bouyer saying at Calhoun Hill, "That man will get us all killed". Half of this thing is looking at scientific/witness evidence; the other half has to be -- surely -- visualising what could have happened in purely human/imaginative terms? On that basis, given the Curley story, it would be very possible to imagine a situation in which the two battalions unite at Calhoun after the repulse of the forward attack unit at the ford. As per Curley, some (I would guess Keogh chief among them) argue for going into defence mode there and then; but your "foaming" Custer says "no, no, we can get them" and goes roaring off to the north with his band of super-loyalists. There's a difference of opinion. The Calhoun Hill contingent do their best to hunker down and form a defensive position, waiting to receive Custer's lot once they're repulsed again ... but by the time that happens, it's too late, and the two elements have been separated. The "foaming" Custer has forgone the opportunity to build a decent defence, and the result is ... as we know.
Imagination is never the best guide to these things, obviously, but it seems to fit after a fashion. Difference of opinion; Custer pressing north; remainder trying to build defensive position within reach of support ...?
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Post by ignimbrite on Feb 24, 2008 16:10:10 GMT -6
Liz In Custer's case I'm speculating it was a mental break down---all the ingredians are there and a foaming Custer is less visible than a bleeding Custer. Vern Smalley in Little Bighorn Mysteries brings up the notion that the terrible heat of the day could have affected Custer's and others' judgment. Heatstroke is a danger, especially when exerting one's self. They probably were dehydrated through lack of drinking water, sweating, (especially if they'd put their jackets on expecting combat) and that famous Montana lack of humidity. It's not unusual to exceed 100 degrees in June. Several accounts mention the heat. What is the current recommendation for fluids when exercising in dry climates...something like a quart an hour ? Ruth
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Post by wild on Feb 25, 2008 3:04:00 GMT -6
Ruth Good point. Exhustion and dehydration will effect judgement.I know this from personal experience of competition in adventure sports.For example your ability to read maps and make decisions just deteriorates under such conditions.
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