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Post by wild on Mar 17, 2011 13:02:25 GMT -6
Further I will support you has the same status as Come on be quick MTF Is the first crossing that will permit Custer to support Reno.It is 1 mile North of Weir Point and it takes Custer 22 minutes to get there. Reno hill is 1.68 miles from where Benteen meets Martin.Benteen covers it in 24 minutes. I can walk a mile in 15 minutes.And it is worth noting that Martin covered 3 miles in 22 minutes Reno holds for 42 minutes.Sufficent time for Custer to reach him. Question was Custer awaiting the arrival of Benteen as early as this before attacking in support of Reno? All the above as per Gray.
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Post by wild on Mar 17, 2011 16:12:32 GMT -6
Extra, Custer departs Reno area 4.08. Benteen arrives Reno area 4.20. Reno withdraws 3.53 The difference between defeat and defeat/massacre was possibly no more than 10 minutes.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Mar 17, 2011 17:16:42 GMT -6
Custer, if you're going by Gray, left Reno Hill 'area' at 3:13, not 4.08. I assume by Reno area you mean Reno Hill, although precedent warns.
"I will support you" is an anecdotal recollection by people, nowhere near in the same status as a note written by Cooke which, in any case, doesn't say "Come on be quick" but "Come On. Big Village. Be quick." Yes, it's important.
Flat line measurement is pretty valueless. This is pretty rugged ground. If you knew where you were going and had no need to be alert to enemy surprise, you'd.....well, doesn't matter, since that doesn't remotely apply here.
Custer may never have made it far down MTC, much less arrive at MTF which you say, and I doubt you could walk that 'mile' in 22 minutes following his route, and you'd have many advantages he did not. So, I don't get your point.
Benteen lists three halts in those 24 minutes, including one for Martin, and for good reasons. Again, what's your point? What does Martin's alleged rate suggest for his longer ride?
There's no evidence whatever that Custer waited for Benteen or anyone. And Martin's RCOI testimony provides evidence that Custer did not count on Benteen's arrival before doing anything. IF he could return to Custer, great, but otherwise stay with the company. Since he'd be with Benteen, how does that support the waiting for Benteen part?
fred,
You had a picture taken looking north from Weir Point where the resolution and the shadows collaborated to show just what god awful ground it was which experienced plainsmen would note where someone like myself would not, because it blends together. It's why I don't think any officer of the 7th would choose to go where they ended up, given the land they'd have to cross. Pretty sure it was you, and on this site, but I cannot find it.
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Post by wild on Mar 17, 2011 19:12:37 GMT -6
Custer, if you're going by Gray, left Reno Hill 'area' at 3:13, not 4.08. I assume by Reno area you mean Reno Hill, although precedent warns. I mean MTC.Beyond that, Custer can no longer support Reno. "I will support you" is an anecdotal recollection by people, nowhere near in the same status as a note written by CookePeople like Reno? The COI found that Reno's orders contained the promise of support.So "I will support you"has the same status as Cooke's message which, in any case, doesn't say "Come on be quick" but "Come On. Big Village. Be quick." Yes, it's important. I was not making a point just idetifying a communication. Flat line measurement is pretty valueless. This is pretty rugged ground. If you knew where you were going and had no need to be alert to enemy surprise, you'd.....well, doesn't matter, since that doesn't remotely apply here. If Custer travelled one mile in 22 minutes then his troopers must have been carrying their horses on their backs. The point was that Martin traversed the same terrain and covered 3 miles in the time it took Custer to travell one.And it is a question I'm posing not making a case. Custer may never have made it far down MTC, much less arrive at MTF which you say, and I doubt you could walk that 'mile' in 22 minutes following his route, and you'd have many advantages he did not. So, I don't get your point. It's not a point it's a question.Why so long getting to MTC/F? Benteen lists three halts in those 24 minutes, including one for Martin, and for good reasons. Again, what's your point? To show that a horseman on a horse in no better condition than any others,travelling over the same terrain moved at 3 times the speed as Custer.And ask could Custer's apparent slowness be attributed to his slowing the pace to allow Benteen to close up. There's no evidence whatever that Custer waited for Benteen or anyone. The COI found that a simultanious attack was planned.Reno attacks ,Custer does not but slows his pace and sends for Benteen.We have to ask was Custer awaiting Benteen. And Martin's RCOI testimony provides evidence that Custer did not count on Benteen's arrival before doing anything. Are we using the RCOI only when it suits us? IF he could return to Custer, great, but otherwise stay with the company. Since he'd be with Benteen, how does that support the waiting for Benteen part? A messenger would normally return to his station immediately.It confirms message was delivered.Benteen had the packs to hurry along and as you say one or two other halts so no reason for Martin to hang about unless given the option. Read more: lbha.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=theories&action=display&thread=2888&page=5#ixzz1Gu21aFLf
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Post by wild on Mar 18, 2011 2:28:58 GMT -6
You had a picture taken looking north from Weir Point where the resolution and the shadows collaborated to show just what god awful ground it was which experienced plainsmen would note where someone like myself would not, because it blends together. It's why I don't think any officer of the 7th would choose to go where they ended up, given the land they'd have to cross. Pretty sure it was you, and on this site, but I cannot find it Another reason why Custer may have waited for Benteen?
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Post by fred on Mar 18, 2011 4:14:07 GMT -6
Darkcloud, Are any of these the picture you remember? These are all taken from the Weir Point "loaf," which is the flatter and most eastern part of the complex. The road separates the loaf from the two western peaks. The third picture shows the torture of Middle Coulee-- not dissimilar from Cedar-- and is a perfect example of why I believe Custer was forced to slow down, using both the coulee and its walls and ridges to move his command, all the while trying to keep it together. [ This paragraph has been changed from its original.] The first two pictures are essentially the same, though taken at different times of the year. The first was taken in mid- to late-May, 2006, and the second in mid-June, 2007. If you look very closely, you will see Cemetery Ridge in the deep background. Just imagine that area shrouded in white (gun-) smoke and billowing dust, then someone please tell me how anyone atop the Weir peaks could tell what was going on. And the trees you see on the ridge that make it more noticeable, were not there in 1876. If these are not the correct photos, let me know and I will dig around for others. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Mar 18, 2011 4:27:54 GMT -6
Darkcloud and Wild,
You are embarked on an interesting discussion, but I think your whole set of premises are distorted by the use of the wrong times. I realize there is nothing else-- currently, unless, of course, you believe me-- but can you work this discussion into some form without them?
In the meantime, it appears I have some reading to catch up on.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 18, 2011 6:38:04 GMT -6
Fred I am having trouble figuring out that third picture. The only place that I recall a road near Ceder Coulee is before Weir. Angles may be the difference. I do not see as much of a problem horse back with that picture. If you ride parallel to the road it would be downhill and no obstacles to navigate around. The deference in the Benteen ride area for example only is he would be traveling at right angles to the road up and down that drainage.
Steve
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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 18, 2011 6:49:19 GMT -6
I think this is the head of Cedar Coulee before Weir point. That is Tori, Gordie's daughter, who is a good horseman. We are doing it again this June. Hopefully we are crossing the LBH horseback and riding the private land area, going in the timber with a guide, and going through Benteen's area. Steve Attachments:
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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 18, 2011 6:59:31 GMT -6
We have crossed the paved road and started to move down the left side of Cedar Coulee. We are out of sight of the river. You can see some of the Cedars in the bottom to the right. Terry also a good horseman is in the lead following the Realbird dog. Steve Attachments:
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Post by Dark Cloud on Mar 18, 2011 8:11:03 GMT -6
Fred,
Not the exact one, but still helpful. The one I'm thinking of is from about where the illustrated tourist info sign is on Weir about where (but, eh, below) people were looking north on the 25th. It was high rez and while it somewhat compressed everything, it shows how deceptive the land is. Believe grass green, shadows long, and the high contrast really made the point about that deceptive quality. And, it may not be your's, but so I thought.
Either way, that land looks dangerous and more so given the numbers of enemy you'd KNOW were about.
AZ and fred,
I think that is Weir Peak coulee in #3; Cedar is the other side of those ominous small hills.
Wild,
What 'status' are you claiming for the note and the recollected oral statement? The findings of the court do not mention "I will support you" at all. I fail to see how the findings equate in 'status' the note with the oral indication of coming support, or are concerned with it at all.
If you pose a question, there are grammatical means to do so. You insinuate, and baselessly, much like hereosrest. There are known reasons for the time taken by the parties at issue.
You fail to acknowledge Martin's testimony that precludes any assumption of Custer waiting for Benteen.
Further, by admitting you meant MTC and not Reno, the bottom falls out of the implication about defeat and massacre.
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Post by fred on Mar 18, 2011 8:29:31 GMT -6
Steve and Darkcloud,
You may be correct about that 3rd picture. There are three coulees: Cedar is the easternmost, and one I have dubbed "West Coulee" is the closest to the river and the westernmost. That is the coulee I think Indians on the east bank would have used to move to MTC. The coulee in the middle comes right off Weir and is probably the one in picture # 3.
Give me a little time and I will go through the rest of what I have; I think I know the picture you are referring to, DC. Hopefully, I didn't lose it when my iPhoto went blank. The bear now is that all the captions were lost!
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by wild on Mar 18, 2011 10:56:02 GMT -6
"I will support you" is an anecdotal recollection by people. It is sworn evidence.Anecdotal sure but if you offer Martin's anecdotal evidence then you have to accept Girard's and Benteen's as the COI did.
What 'status' are you claiming for the note and the recollected oral statement? The status of orders with obligations on all parties to those orders.
The findings of the court do not mention "I will support you" at all. Findings are conclusions not a regurgated verbatim record.
I fail to see how the findings equate in 'status' the note with the oral indication of coming support, or are concerned with it at all. It accepts as fact the that "support"was part of Reno order.
You fail to acknowledge Martin's testimony that precludes any assumption of Custer waiting for Benteen. Martin was given the option of remaining or making his own way back to his station/post. I read no significance into it atall atall.
Fred You are embarked on an interesting discussion, but I think your whole set of premises are distorted by the use of the wrong times. I realize there is nothing else-- currently, unless, of course, you believe me-- but can you work this discussion into some form without them Can't take a dimension out Fred.Try to discuss this battle without maps?Gray may not be perfect but I have found no obvious distortion. Taking our discussion above.Did Custer slow his pace to allow Benteen to close up?.22 Minutes to cover a mile suggests he did.And the timing fits in with possible reason--he cannot achieve anything without Benteen.
Nice photos
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Post by Dark Cloud on Mar 18, 2011 12:42:49 GMT -6
And now, the Wild walk-backs.
1. The COI's finding is silent on individual testimony. There is nothing but wishful thinking to equate your support quote (Where does it come from, btw? The quote, not an approximation.) with the written note. All it says is Reno was to receive support from Custer's column at some point.
2. "The status of orders with obligations on all parties to those orders." Reno cannot be faulted for Custer changing his mind, nor can Custer, barring deliberate ruse.
3. If it isn't stated in the Findings, you cannot claim it is.
4. "It accepts as fact the that "support"was part of Reno order." It accepts as fact that Custer indicated he'd support the actions covered by Reno's orders.
5. "I read no significance into it atall atall."
If Martin was with Benteen and Custer was going to be waiting for Benteen, this wouldn't be necessary. And if Custer was waiting for Benteen whom he'd just burdened with the train, he'd probably think it wise to so inform Martin to tell him. But of course, this makes zero sense and would be atypical of Custer to wait on indefensible high ground.
6. Custer didn't slow his pace. He stopped a few times, the last to tighten his saddles before heading down MTC.
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Post by fred on Mar 18, 2011 13:17:11 GMT -6
Darkcloud— I am afraid I have not been able to find the picture you are talking about, so it is either lost or someone else posted it… I will keep looking, but I do not think I have the one you are referring to. This one may be of some interest, however. It shows Weir Peaks and the loaf, but it is shot from the lower part of the Finley – Finckle Ridge. Interesting perspective. The Weir loaf is seen clearly in the center and you can see the road – cut between it and the northern peak to the right. The ridge in front and coming out of the left is the Nye – Cartwright/Luce extension that I believe Custer used when he was near Ford B. The ford itself would be off the picture to the right and Deep Coulee is just below the dark area along the Nye Ridge. You can see the difficulty of negotiating the ridges along the river and Cedar Coulee would be in between those sets of “bluffs” on the horizon and coming down—right to left—from the Weir loaf. Best wishes, Fred. Attachments:
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