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Post by herosrest on Sept 26, 2023 11:03:27 GMT -6
Here is an example of my thinking with closing the show on Custer's Hill - The One. Split screen into simultaneous heroic demises, followed by exultant what have we done? Amidst the rush of looters and bystanders bent on vengence for past sins.
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Post by herosrest on Sept 26, 2023 11:55:43 GMT -6
An anecdote Document of Discharge for Indian Scout Round Wooden Cloud, Signed by Maj. Marcus Reno and 1st Lt. George D. Wallace. Document of Discharge for Indian Scout Round Wooden Cloud, Signed by Maj. Marcus Reno and 1st Lt. George D. Wallace. On September 30, 1876, Reno signed this Civil-War-surplus document of discharge at Ft. Abraham Lincoln for one of Custer's scouts. Apparently, the scout owed money to the post trader, William Harrison, for on 6 October, Lt. Wallace signed on the back that all was square. Round Wooden Cloud, also known as Buffalo Ancestor, was not an Arikara but a Lakota married to an Arikara woman who at the time of this discharge had served two six-month enlistments as a scout for Custer and the 7th Cavalry. The document shows general aging and tape residue at the top. From the Glenwood Swanson Collection. thelbha.proboards.com/search/results?captcha_id=captcha_search&what_at_least_one=devon&who_only_made_by=0&display_as=0&search=Search == Gordon Harper. So, how to apply '--' to the search? IEEE 754?
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Post by herosrest on Sept 26, 2023 19:32:05 GMT -6
If I remember, he met them up on the bluffs. That being so, there are some timing issues but Scouts reported meeting Thompson and Watson with horses down (on the bluffs). That comes down to which of the scouts that was. I'm middle of the night and so will check it up tomorrow. For example, the scout Soldier, was not a valley pony stealer but involved later on after he joined up with them. Same with Stab but he never left an interview which has come to light. Strikes Two maybe? It's a blamange.
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Post by johnson1941 on Sept 27, 2023 1:38:29 GMT -6
We pursued on after squaws and ran upon a big bunch of horses and took after them and let women go. These horses were on east side opposite point of timber I wonder if ole Peter Thompson saw this and expanded on the story a little bit? This what I was thinking. It would make sense, but an issue would be timing. Hmmm…But maybe timing not a big deal? There were a lot more scouts there than the 7 or so pony stealers. Some down there seemingly till the corral was formed. (Young hawk - who mentions squaws around him) The Rees with horses got shot at by Custers rear as they were going up, and those & Rees w/Custer passed/saw Thompson+1 as they were moving on the ridge. Thompson saw them. Both saw/tangled with 5 Sioux too. at least one of the numerous scouts would have had to linger on the flat long enough for Thompson to make his run down the buffalo trail near where they went up, etc. Thompson 'After the dissappearance of Custer and his men...While mediating on the combinations...I saw a small party of Indians...driving mules and ponies...While I was making calculations as to leaving my horse and trying my luck on foot I thought I saw something familiar in their appearance. On coming close I saw that they were our Ree scouts and two Crow Indians..." ... 'They made their way to the rear and I went on ahead. The animals the scouts had they had captured from the Sioux." Soldier (behind custer with stabbed) "I, White Eagle, and Bull followed Custer and five companies. .. ... “I was riding a slow horse that had become tired out, and this put me behind the command. There were two other Ree scouts with me. We passed the lone tepee and came to the place where the trail of the soldiers separated, one trail keeping on down the creek toward the Little Bighorn, and the other taking off to the right, in a direction down the river. We three Rees took the right-hand trail, which we afterward learned was the way Custer had gone." “We followed this right-hand trail and came to the bluffs overlooking the Little Bighorn, and after going some farther...We came upon a white soldier whose horse had given out, and He was kicking the horse and striking him with his fist, and saying: ‘Me go Custer! Me go Custer,’ at the same time pointing in the direction that Custer and the five companies had gone." ... “We went up a little dip and came in view of the Sioux camp in the valley, and soon came across a second soldier whose horse was down, overcome by heat, and he could not get him up and was swearing and calling him a son of a bitch and kicking him." ... "Just after this I saw Ree scouts who had captured horses come up the ridge and Strikes Two said: “Leader, I will give you this spotted horse that is leading the herd.” Where they came up the river ran right along the foot of the bluff.” … “I was following the herd back toward lone tepee. We came to the two soldiers whose horses had given out. They were together and on foot on the side of the hill. Five Sioux came up, following us. These two soldiers became separated and the Sioux circled them and we supposed killed them both.” A partial head count… “Gerard rode on with the scouts here. Young Hawk, Goose, Black Fox, Red Star, Strikes Two, Bloody Knife, Little Sioux, Bob-tailed Bull were with him, also Forked Horn, Red-Foolish-Bear, Boy Chief, Little Brave, and One Feather. They rode hard, charging down to the Little Big Horn and, after crossing it, they were near the camp of the Dakotas. When they got across, they separated again. Six of the scouts turned off to the right sharply, where the Dakota horses were by the timber. Boy Chief and Red Star were ahead, then followed Strikes Two, Black Fox, Little Sioux, and One Feather.” Pta-a-te (dakota - with horses) and the 2 crows (in retreat) too.
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Post by johnson1941 on Sept 27, 2023 1:54:48 GMT -6
More Thompson
"I looked ahead and saw Watson but was unable to overtake him, as slow as he was going. He suddenly turned aside from the trail as if he wished to avoid some threatening danger. While I was wondering what it could be, I saw a small party of Indians about thirty in number driving a small bunch of ponies and mules, coming towards us..."
"...When I had nearly gained the top of the hill, I saw five Sioux Indians. ...With five I could not cope and within the last few moments a few more Indians had gained the trail ahead of me, and to make my way down the face of the bluff I knew was nearly impossible as the Indians were climbing up to gain the trail. Looking to my right I saw a ravine and at the bottom of it a small clump of wild cherry bushes..."
More Soldier
“Soldier first caught up with White Eagle and the two rode on together until they caught up with Bull. Stabbed rode on ahead to the end of the ridge east of the river and the three scouts followed him. At the ridge they began to see signs of Custer’s march off to the east. They could see the trails through the grass.
Here they found a white soldier trying to get his horse up, he was cursing and swearing, pounding his horses head with his fists and kicking him under the belly. Here the… trails were very plain. Soon a little farther up the ridge, they found another soldier with his horse down. This soldier indicated by signs that he belonged to Custer’s command. From the ridge they saw the whole Dakota camp and the battlefield. At this point Soldier was riding very hard. He saw Bob-tailed Bull far out at the end of the line and many Dakotas riding behind the ridge at the left. He met on the ridge some of the Arikara scouts driving off the Dakota horses from between the ridge and the river.”
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Post by johnson1941 on Sept 27, 2023 2:57:50 GMT -6
yep and we do know just where this is…and it STILL shows youre wrong… Varnum RCOI " Q. Where do you fix that point on the map? A. I can’t fix it on the map. Assuming that the position of Major Reno’s command on the hill is correct it was probably a quarter of a mile below that or something like thatA. I don’t pretend to lay down a rule and say the prolongation of the skirmish line would strike that particular spot where the column was, but as I rode in the rear of the skirmish line and looked up, there in front of me was the Gray Horse Company." ... "Q. What was the character of the country on which you saw the Gray Horse Company? A. It was up on the bluffs we afterwards retreated to and where we had our fight. It was rather rough. That is, the top was uneven and rolling. It was a high bluff." He saw the grays about 1/4 mile below Reno Corral. “Just down from where they went up on the bluffs”. Sound familiar? It should. See ‘just down from where DeWolf got killed’ Which is up stream of cedar. “Q. Did it appear on the crest of the bluff? A. It was back from the actual edge of the bluffs. The head and the rear of the column were both behind the edge of the bluffs in a sort of hollow and I just happened to catch sight of about the whole of the Gray Horse Company. Q. State as near as you can how far that place was from you, not as you judged it then but as you became satisfied afterwards. A. That is difficult to answer. I think they were a little farther down than where we struck the bluffs and went up on them, and not quite so far down as the figure '2" in pencil on the map" Of course we know on Grahams map he showed them IN Cedar. “Probably 1/4 mile…” 'on the bluffs they later retreated to' 'a little further down than where they struck the bluffs/not so far as 2' please try again. Or accept you're wrong.
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Post by johnson1941 on Sept 27, 2023 3:47:06 GMT -6
What??? Are you still on about the Rees climbing the bluffs to Reno Hill??? Still not sure what (or why) youre trying to say here. maybe try a map? get some perspective? "Rees ran Horses Up Here"
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Post by johnson1941 on Sept 27, 2023 6:00:37 GMT -6
A LOT of effort just to get to: ”Just after this I saw Ree scouts who had captured horses come up the ridge….Where they came up the river ran right along the foot of the bluff.” & “Just about where Reno retreated up"
but you do you!
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Post by johnson1941 on Sept 27, 2023 9:21:15 GMT -6
And while we are talking spotting Custer up on the bluffs, besides knowing where DeRudio saw Custer and Cooke on Weir Hill, we also have Girard seeing the troops...helps with confirming Varnum and DeRudio. " Not more than four rounds had been fired before they saw Custer's command dashing along the hills one mile to their rear. Reno then gave the order: "The Indians are taking us in the rear, mount and charge."..." Reno led his men in Indian file back to the ford above which he had seen Custer's command pass." Girard, RCOI Q. You have testified in effect that it was about 1 o’clock by your watch when Major Reno’s command left the timber where he engaged the Indians. Now state how long it was before that that you last saw General Custer’s command or any part of it. A. Between ten and fifteen minutes, I should think, before, prior to Major Reno leaving the timber. I saw General Custer’s command, or a portion of it, just as I was going down into the timber. Q. Where did you see it? A. In a southeasterly direction from where I was, about opposite the letter “D” in the word “COMMAND” in “RENO’S COMMAND” as shown on the map".{of course the map sucks, but it helps some}
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Post by herosrest on Sept 27, 2023 11:41:55 GMT -6
It's good the amount of homework you do with this and I assume that there is good reason. Quick notes. From my long distant time with bucket and spade ont this rats nest of complications, the single scout was One Feather. I have one hiccup with Peter Thompson in his manuscripts date which is post 1920 and the Ree Narratives although I don't remember when Camp did his interviews. That's how nit-pickey I got with this stuff once upon a time. 'Where they came up the river ran right along the foot of the bluff.' This is a convoluted rubbish about upriver and not up the bluffs. Varnum: I can't fix it on the map. So.... he had a stab at it... Cedar is hidden from view in the valley by intervening higher ground. Thus the area to suit your thinking would be SSH. The scouts point out they went beyond to the ridge from which they could see the whole battlefield and village, which ain't SSH. But...... they may have been referring to being at SSH later on and the battlefield can be seen from there. Well, some of it. It just another lump of jelly for nailing. If you need to put your hammer to work then play on. I'm not trying to shoot things down but do like complicated and particularly so because it is milly complicated. Gray just used --- nope, don't like that and lob it away. I don't and in consequence cannot accept that Cedar Coulee was or is a realistic idea for getting to the river when you could and can still do as the road does. You do not ride horses down the bottom of coulees. You ride the spine of the ridge. Now, if you are going to continue relying entirely upon Walter Camp as a gospel, you're not going to get anywhere because his work is a jumble of mistakes which he then slowly ironed out - whwn he realised his initial impressions were incorrect. I'll reiterate with one of the difficulties; up the river, does not mean up the bluff. It might do and it might not but there is no certainty. It's jumbly. DeRudio did NOT see Custer. He saw Benteen. Let's just diasgree since you cannot sell me DeRudio sighting Custer, nor Custer and Cedar Creek. They didn't happen.
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Post by johnson1941 on Sept 27, 2023 12:58:40 GMT -6
Well that too is a new one! Lol! Hey - maybe he time-warped to see himself when he and Benteen were up there, on Weir Hill - aka at Benteen’s G - together 2 days later!? Bet they rocked those Buckskin pants! DeRudio RCOI "A. Yes, sir, and upstream too. It was the highest point around there. I went on the top of it afterwards, on the 27th, with Captain Benteen." Told you it was fun - But you keep doing you! So Benteen was below Reno Hill 1/2mile or so while Reno was in the timber, before he even retreated? Wow - can NOT make this stuff up! But YOU certainly can! Just know, THAT will really mess up some time-lines!
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Post by johnson1941 on Sept 27, 2023 13:37:37 GMT -6
Nope. But you keep swinging!
(psst - don't forget "the highest point" Weir's Hill - as everyone there explained - gave a decent view of the valley, the situation around the timber, part of the village, etc.) And we KNOW where that is. See Camp and Herendeen etc.
Q. Do you think General Custer, from the position he occupied at the time you saw him, could take in the whole situation of the Indian village? A. Yes, sir, I think he could take a pretty good view of our position at all events. Q. Do you think he could see the village? A. He could see a part of it. He could see the village as far as the conformation of the ground would permit him.
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Post by herosrest on Sept 27, 2023 15:05:41 GMT -6
As far as conformities permit is exactly correct. DeRudio did not sight Custer on the bluffs - other perticipants were there. DeRudio did see Benteen from the timber. There is no doubt on that. He saw Benteen up the valley and this was in the Chicago testimony. It had to be Benteen and has never been challenged as fabrication or mistake. In looking the other way with the retreat underway, DeRudio saw figures on the bluffs. That was not Custer. Bouyer was up there amongst others we know of.
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Post by johnson1941 on Sept 27, 2023 15:14:18 GMT -6
Sure - ok.
Cause surely Benteen was the one in buckskin pants he saw waving his hat & 'cheering'. Hey - maybe Martin saw BENTEEN - on the exact same place DeRudio said he did - AKA Weir Hill / Benteen's G, waving his hat and cheering to Custer's troops - NOT Custer!
Im just gonna laugh more now.
Keep making stuff up and arguing with ALL the witnesses - its funny!
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Post by herosrest on Sept 27, 2023 15:24:30 GMT -6
Hmm.....
I could repeat what I've given but there is no need. If you research properly you will have the same information. DeRudio also heard salvoes of gunfire which came from the Custer fight and seeming close and reassuring. He was the oldest of 7th's Officers, on expedition that day.
Benteen didn't see DeRudio but life's like that.
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