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Post by johnson1941 on Sept 20, 2023 7:43:57 GMT -6
And more - also with regards to the thread subject...
"...and then he saw Bloody Knife swing in from the timber along which, from the direction of the Dakota camp, he was driving three horses.
Bloody Knife was his uncle and he came up to him and said: “Take these horses away back, this is what Custer told us to do.” Little Sioux paid no attention and Bloody Knife turned back without waiting to see what became of the horses. With Little Sioux there were Red Star, Strikes Two, and Boy Chief. As they stood there together looking across the river they saw at the foot of the ridge (about where they were to cross later) three women and two children coming across the flat running and hurrying along as best they could, on a slant toward the river. Little Sioux fired twice at them and so did Red Star. Then all four of the scouts rode through the timber toward the river to kill them.
Bear, Sitting; Hawk, Young; Bear, Red; Chief, Boy; Star, Red; Wolf, Running; Sioux, Little; Two, Strikes; Ahead, Goes. Custer's Scouts at the Little Bighorn: The Arikara Narrative . BIG BYTE BOOKS. Kindle Edition.
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Post by herosrest on Sept 20, 2023 17:15:03 GMT -6
So how did they they do what you state. Go up the bluffs to Reno Hill. They didn't because they couldn't.  Where the river cut right in under the bluffs. I assume the horses all had wings. |
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Post by johnson1941 on Sept 20, 2023 17:54:50 GMT -6
You have to read more carefully and get better maps - they went up where they did cause, after a mile-long running fight along the flat, the river/ridge cut them off from going up the valley any further - 'between timber and where Reno retreated across'; " Just about where Reno retreated up". "They crossed the ridge where they did because it curved in front of them and they did not turn out of their course." "They reached and crossed the high bluff, at which point was the hardest fighting". Once up there they moved whever they liked. (But they explain that too). They made it up the bluffs - with horses, being pursued by Dakotas, just like EVERYONE ELSE who came up " Just about where Reno retreated up"...which of course also happens to be just about where the river is against the bluffs...what it so hard to understand? "{Soldier} met on the ridge some of the Arikara scouts driving off the Dakota horses from between the ridge and the river." See? Not a mystery...at all. Don't need Red Bull or anything.  |
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Post by herosrest on Sept 20, 2023 22:29:40 GMT -6
Where Reno retreated up as you say, is a poor basis for your conclusions and trust of erstwhile record. Reno did more than one retreats up. I'm sure that you can realise this and one of the retreats began amile further downriver.
To reach Reno Hill from the location of the pony herd was impossible as conveyed in the accounts of the retreat. For example where was Lt. Hare when the scouts were arrived on the bluffs and met Stab, or Stabbed if you prefer. Stab had travelled down the ridge and returned to join the PS's by one account. The account which tells that he carried a message to Custer.
The bluffs are cut by a series of runoffs into the river. Steep ravines which slice through the drop to the valley floor and up which travel is by the bottom or along the ledge above them running from the valley floor to the heights.
Whilst the accounts are interpretted as you believe, the interpretation is an impossibility and easily seen to be so because the PS did not recross the river to a route accessing the flat below Reno Hill. The river bends which flow into the bluffs do not allow access to Reno Hill from downriver. You cannot get up the bluffs to Reno Hill from below the river bends which cut into the bluffs and turn south into GO bend.
That being so, Lt. Hare was talking through his hat in general terms of locations and equally so the scouts being pursued at the time by camp guards who were trying to fill them full of sharp pointy sticks. We have also to consider the matter of specific length of an Arikata mile given as about a mile since they were not interested in anything other than covering it rapidly when they were covering it.
You obviously believe your interpretation of various information fits the bill. I point out that it does not because the terrain makes the impression people grab and adopt was not possible without crossing the river again to reach the flat upriver below Reno Hill.
The Ree accounts are important to understanding and broadening understanding but date to 45 years later, in the cause of setting the record straight, which is amusing given this discussion. During the poat battle and since, it was accepted that those scouts who retreated on Powder River, fled the battle. This of course is not true since they were cut off from Reno Hill and unable to rejoin the command when it fell back from Weir Peak and was beseiged at Reno Hill. With the Sioux rampant and looking for their solen herds, the Rees obeyed their orders and fell back. Of course we only have their word for this other than that they were considered a hindrance to the military, during the confusion of battle.
The PS went up the bluffs downriver of the bend which cut into the bluffs. I believe this to be entirely correct. You are disagreeing and I request that you indicate their route up the bluffs to Reno Hill. My view is that they weny up inthe area of Weor Pk. And then along the bluffs to bump onto Kanipe and then the oncoming packtrain... It is obvious from the various accounts that the events and their recollection, were chaotic. We disgree and you ain't selling me your puppy theory.
Re-thomk it.
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Post by johnson1941 on Sept 21, 2023 4:56:34 GMT -6
"the bluffs are cut by a series..."... Pick one - any one. And there were buffalo trails coming up/down too. Of course this attached pic is 150 years later - but LOTS of ways to get up the bluffs from the flat, especially when the bluff crosses in front of you and you 'have' to get up there (as the Rees describe). Yes - sooner or later if you want to get up those bluffs you have to be on the east side - and yes - seems they already were on the flat nearer the timber; they rode through the timber, then seeing the herd on the flat downstream, crossed the river, & they got horses then were traveling up stream in a running fight. The Rees with horses were NOT on Reno's flat.Wilson map shows (and Varnum describes) much more of a steep incline at Weir Hill area (the highest point) where it cuts off the flats & the scout's run upstream than current images; though it looks like there is a little gap on the map, DeRudio says there was hardly room for a horse to stand there, so seems very likely they came up on an angle just north of there at the end of the flat and crossed the high bluff. See red circles. Once up on the ridge, go east a bit to a ravine and change horses; go upstream along the ridge to Reno corral; go past to Teepee & horse holders - back down towards where Custer went till he made the right down the coulee - whatever. Even if you have to cross Weir Hill/SSR Martin's Ridge once you get up to the top of bluff you can move along it (which they just may have done, depending on exactly where the Rees came up, since they saw the rear of Custer troops, they saw the stragglers in that area, and the troopers shot, & the stragglers saw the Rees & the 5 Sioux. May have been just about there, since that's where the river was tight, where Thompson was left behind, etc.) Hardly seems that way. Lots of ways to get up. Many cuts to choose from. Just like Reno et. al. did farther upstream. Wasn't easy. But they did it - some several times.  Attachments:
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Post by johnson1941 on Sept 21, 2023 18:05:44 GMT -6
Little Sioux narrates...
1) The soldiers were forming a line at right angle to the timber and then the firing began...
T
2) Little Sioux was about half way to the line of soldiers with others all around him, and then he saw Bloody Knife swing in from the timber along which, from the direction of the Dakota camp, he was driving three horses.. ..Little Sioux paid no attention and Bloody Knife turned back without waiting to see what became of the horses.
3) With Little Sioux there were Red Star, Strikes Two, and Boy Chief. As they stood there together looking across the river they saw at the foot of the ridge (about where they were to cross later) three women and two children coming across the flat running and hurrying along as best they could, on a slant toward the river.
4)Little Sioux fired twice at them and so did Red Star. Then all four of the scouts rode through the timber toward the river to kill them.
5)But just at this point they saw across the river on the flat a large herd of about two hundred Dakota horses in the sage brush, so they stopped pursuing the women and children and started after the horses. Little Sioux had no trouble at either bank, he rode his horse swimming. On the opposite side there was-much sage brush and willows and the four all crossed together.
6) They started to head the horses upstream. Red Star rode farthest to the left, then Boy Chief, then Strikes Two, and last of all Little Sioux.
7) While they were driving the horses he first saw the tepees of the Dakotas, three-quarters of a mile away across the river, just the tops of the poles and very many of them.
They had ridden farther ahead than the battle line of the soldiers, that is, farther downstream in order to head off and drive the horses back to where they could get them away from the Dakotas.
8) They had hardly headed the horses before the Dakotas came across the river from the village where he had seen the tops of the tepees
9) and from there they carried on a running fight up the valley for over a mile with the pursuing Dakotas chasing and firing at them.
10) They reached and crossed the high bluff, at which point was the hardest fighting...
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Post by johnson1941 on Sept 22, 2023 5:19:41 GMT -6
Strikes Two
1) The Sioux horses captured by Bloody Knife now stampeded and crossed the river, and we, I and above six, put in after them…some of them ran back toward Sioux village, but we turned them and got the whole bunch together.
2) Little Sioux and Bull-in-the-Water helped to get the horses over the ridge. We drove the horses up high bank on east side and Stabbed now joined us, making eight.
3) While we were driving horses up hill from river, some soldiers passed by and fired on us by mistake, and one of the captured horses was killed.
4) Here were all the remaining scouts who did not cross the river.
5) and soon Strike the Lodge and Assiniboine came up, making ten, and we drove horses and got them in a good position.
6) The Rees who captured the ponies ran them up the valley a few miles to get them out of sight and left them with holders.
7) While we were going back we saw the pack train come along. Bull and Share were each leading a pack mule (They were not in the fight in the bottom)…we distributed the horses…The horses were headed into a ravine east of the ridge and the scouts changed horses...each now saddled up a fresh horse
8) Left horses with holders and came back to bluffs...As the scouts turned back to fight and rode up on the ridge, they saw that the line was broken and that the soldiers were coming up the hill.
9) Nine of us returned from horses and stayed with Reno.
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Post by herosrest on Sept 23, 2023 7:38:15 GMT -6
Some study of the terrain. The Pegasus theory does not fly. Tha accepted idea is a cursory blamange of if, and, when and maybe's by people who weren't there, weren't paying attention if they were, were misleading through interpretation or presentiment, or just plain nuts in the Montana way. You cannot get to Reno Hill from where the ponies were stolen without crossing back over the river into the valley and then back across the river again - unless your Reno Hill is the entire bluff all the way down to Ford B. What odds that describes the Ree idea of Reno Hill. Show the route to get from pposite the village to Reno Hill. We are not at cross purposes. You are saying the pony herd was taken up the bluffs to arrive on Reno Hill. That did not happen when the pony stealers ran off the herd. For example, the Reno retreat had not begun at that time and the pony stealers left the bluffs headed somewhere distant and gone when Reno arrived. Also- if you go to the video at 5:52, is the other skirmishline image which, since it was positioned for D.F. Barry, by Gall in 1886, we can discuss it within topic. That skirmishline is positioned along the Deep Coulee retreat route from Ford B. In terms of what has gone on with the pony stealer's accounts and related information from Hare for example, there is a very brilliant corollary in the written account of Big Beaver, given to Marquis and Blummer in 1928, only properly explained by his map and account of 1930. That quite simply demolishes Ford D as an effect of pork & beans. On the Reno fight, a small herd of ponies and mules stolen near the river east of the big village did not run up the bluffs below Reno Hill and whilst this has obviously dawned upon your goodself; for a majority of this battles fans it is but another example of the Mitch Bouyer photo which isn't Bouyer.  Progress upriver beyond that bend ehich cut right into the bluffs was not possible and the heights were climbed downriver - somewhere. All the likely routes have trails along them from the valley floor to the the high ground. Zoom in, see for yourself. There is one map only, the earliest I have found, showing the approximate river course in 1877, when Clark and Long were there. Here's a more recent topo link - you just have to believe me, son.  OK, so............... how long is an Arikara mile? 
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Post by johnson1941 on Sept 23, 2023 9:04:26 GMT -6
LOL! Man are you reaching - Reno only "retreated UP" 1 time - 'about a mile up the valley' of where the scouts got the horses AND where the river was tight to the bluffs. Try again. No i am NOT saying they were taken up to Reno Hill AND THAT RENO WAS THERE! GEESH!! Stop getting and making things so confused - it is not that hard! I posted numerous quotes. I posted 2 narratives of the locations AND TIMING - which I read. Interviewed years later, they CAN refer to place and events and things even if that happened at different times! Just like at the RCOI. Just like every other piece of data on the battle. There was NO LIVE RECORDING. So... I AM saying THE PONY STEALERS SAID they went up "Just about where Reno retreated up". And Soldier said "I saw Ree scouts who had captured horses come up the ridge... Where they came up the river ran right along the foot of the bluff". I am NOT SAYING THEY DID IT AT THE SAME TIME AS RENO!!!! In fact, WE KNOW THEY DIDN'T! I AM saying THE PONY STEALERS SAID "The Rees who captured the ponies ran them up the valley a few miles to get them out of sight and left them with holders" & "Left horses with holders and came back to bluffs...As the scouts turned back to fight and rode up on the ridge, t hey saw that the line was broken and that the soldiers were coming up the hill." I AM saying THE PONY STEALERS SAID "They crossed the ridge where they did because it curved in front of them and they did not turn out of their course." "They reached and crossed the high bluff, at which point was the hardest fighting". I AM pointing out the obvious - that there is only one place the ridge cut across the flat, where the river runs tight, where the high bluff is, and near Reno retreat UP. Funny it just also happens to be up the valley about a mile from the herd. I AM saying THE PONY STEALERS SAID "they carried on a running fight up the valley for over a mile, then crossed the ridge". THEY HAD TO. It is seemingly impossible not to without crossing the river and crossing again, as it seems like there was not enough room to get around the base of the high bluff - AKA Weir HIll. I AM saying "Just about where Reno retreated up" DOES NOT NECESSARLIY MEAN 'exactly where Reno retreated up'. But I bet it means it's damn close. And I bet it DOESN'T mean a mile away below Weir peaks (which just happens to be the wrong direction & where the bluffs are about as far from the river as they get). I AM saying there was 1 and only one location upstream along that flat / ridge where "the river ran right along the foot of the bluff" and THAT IS WHERE THEY SAID THEY CAME UP. I AM saying I believe them. There were PLENTY of cuts for horses to get up the buffs - cuts ravines buffalo trails. Wings are NOT needed so get off that nonsense. RENO ET AL DID IT! REES DID IT! Horses did it. Buffaloes did it. Dakotas did it! EVERY ONE THERE SHOWED IT'S POSSIBLE - yet YOU don't think so. Just silly. BECAUSE ALL the cuts & ravines were NOT only exactly where Reno retreated, but along the bluffs in that area (and it also wasn't as steep north of Weir Hill). Camp showed a route in '09 on his "interview with Rees" map, but his start point, maybe based on earlier interview w/o the east flat info, was wrong i.e. NOT on the flat across the river. He did however also show a gap at the goofy "google 70s" river loop, & he showed them crossing the high ridge just below the Reno retreat UP.. Now I can guess on a route, but that is not good enough for me...but I'll have some fun and add the attached...enjoy!  |
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Post by johnson1941 on Sept 23, 2023 9:28:17 GMT -6
I would love to see a map from 1877! Because neither Wilson's (1879?) or 1891 USGS shows that loop ON GOOGLE (LOL!) 'that was there tilll the 70s' being ALL THAT CLOSE TO THE BLUFFS! Funny - that stuff is just TOO FUNNY! So - how strange is that?!?  Don't have to believe me - just them. Oh wait - WE DO!!!   SO a period map - with another, simpler route  ...(take your pick of the actual start point of the herd on the flat, but remember they traveled around a mile upstream between the river and the ridge before they went up & crossed the ridge/high bluff). Attachments:
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Post by johnson1941 on Sept 23, 2023 15:08:55 GMT -6
And since you asked me...this shows my current best guess well.  |
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Post by herosrest on Sept 24, 2023 3:21:56 GMT -6
Up the river is not up the bluff.
I'm not saying that you are saying anything. What I am saying is that you are not being critical in your analyses. Up the river is not up the bluff, making that to be up the river provides a critical assessment of the theory, which by the way is the type which sucks up bottom feeding flatfish. The impression developed and passed into non-critical thinking and General Consumption's huge army of buyers, is rubbish. I didn't say what you said I said, but that doesn't matter. What does matter is that your output is Hollywood capable and entirely engaging entertainment. The pont stealing scouts did not climb the bluffs below (under) Reno Hill. That didn't happen. Lots of people went up and down the gullies and ridges in that terrain but none were the specific pony stealers whom are the point of this point. They went up the bluffs below (dowriver) of Weir Peak.
That rather mundane and blatant reality, when properly researched and analysed, has huge implications for the entire battle. I'll offer an example. As Major Reno's situation developed in the valley, a number of his scouts were rampant east of the river and raiding Sioux herds. They ran off a smallish group of perhaps three dozen animals (all they could control) and took them up the bluffs below Weir Pk.
What else was going on? The pony stealers were pursued by a party of Sioux camp guards attempting to recover the theft. Perfectly normal noises. Reno's companies were shooting up the tepee'. An alarm went up from the ranks who had seen Indian horsemen - ACROSS the river from their fighting line. Who could that possibly have been? we have two options, well, three. Sioux. Arikara, or both - running for the hills on horseback with a pony herd. Damn..... they are taking the horses, Sarge! SHIP, guns don't work and the horses are gone............ Hmmm..... Steady there, men! Custer's coming!! Oh no he ain't Sir, he was up there ten minutes ago.............
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Post by herosrest on Sept 24, 2023 3:43:27 GMT -6
In terms of your proposed route link - the PS knew that by moving upriver, they would have to re-cross the river to get upriver of the skirmishline. They were not that dumb. They went shortest route up the bluffs. Try looking over the terrain for an easy trail which exists today. Point being, easy trail then is an easy trail now. One hundred Ree scouts were asked would you go up those bluffs like a white man would or take an easy trail? |
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Post by johnson1941 on Sept 24, 2023 5:49:09 GMT -6
Has ANYONE said this? ANY one? You in the right thread?
Reno Hill??? You mean 'about where reno retreated up'? You confused again??? You do realize Reno Hill is like 1/3 mile from the retreat UP, and 3/4 mile from where the PS came up, right?
Which NO ONE who was there says. So you made it up.
DO better. As always - provide evidence - not opinion.
Sure - After a running fight up the flat for a mile. THEN they crossed. Just as they said.
Again - what you say is YOUR opinion. Which you completely fabricated. Based on…who knows.
Do Better. Provide evidence. ONE witness? ANY witness?
Too funny how once again all the witnesses were wrong, even though they all agree, yet you can provide nothing that says otherwise. Hmmm..
Scary how easy and often you post what is only your opinion as fact. With NO backup but more opinion.
Noted.
Yeah...OK. Well this is a new one.
not that it matters - at all - since they didn’t mention worrying about the line once they got the horses, and ran/fought up the valley about a mile before going up.
How about that map??
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Post by johnson1941 on Sept 24, 2023 6:01:20 GMT -6
The scouts were asked - they responded. What, where and why. Fighting is tough, and the other side might just put a damper on 'your' perfect plan (i.e. see Custer)
Anyway - it is a tough thing that you choose not to believe the numerous witnesses. You have no choice but to make up an alternative. Which you often do. Doubting all the witnesses will/can certainly throw your theories of the battle askew - when you argue with the guys that were there, and once again a few just happen to agree.
Well - good luck with it! Cause so far your theories are easy to destroy.
Can you post the 1877 map showing the loop tight against the bluffs? THAT would be important. If it is real, it would shorten their run across the flat up valley and force a lower ridge crossing.
Thanks I'll wait!!
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Don't have to believe me - just them.
...(take your pick of the actual start point of the herd on the flat, but remember they traveled around a mile upstream between the river and the ridge before they went up & crossed the ridge/high bluff).
