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Post by shan on Sept 24, 2023 7:18:36 GMT -6
Whilst I don't want to take sides, for as I've found out to my cost, when one does, one ften ends up being mauled by both parties, however, on this occasion I think herosrest has it about right.
Put yourself there at the time. Your on the skirmish line with no idea wha's going on other that your scared and wondering where your horse is. You hear firing over to your right, and when you glance round, you see a whole bunch of Indians across the river driving a number of loose horses towards the south. Are they your horses, army horses? If so, then you fear your done for, for there you are stranded and on foot in front of a hige Indian camp without acess to enough ammunition. Unfotrunately our glance can't tell how many Indians there are, or whether the horses their driving are army horses because there's too much smoke and dust, and besides, your trying to watch every which way at once.
Now then, that little scenario doesn't solve which route the PS ended up taking, and in some ways, it doesn't really matter, for Reno's men were having to deal with what was going on all around them, a situation which was changing very fast, whilst Custers men were on their way riding towards what they thought would be glory, although what they got was not the sort of glory they'd wished for.
So, here we are, more than a 100 years later holding a post mortem on every little incident, in this case, which route did the PS's take. Now I've read through that book several times ~ and as I've said before, its a great read, but I'm afraid I haven't a clue as to where they climbed the bluffs. If they mentioned it, then this old mind of mine seems to be incapable of remembering it. Anyway, why would they remember, apart from the fact that they were excited and trying to avoid being killed, they couldn' have imagined that so many people in the future would that interested in the actual route they took.
And so I ask again, does it really matter? In the end it had no real bearing in what was to happen down in the valley, beyond being an entertaining folk tale, and it certainly had no bearing on what became of Custer and his men. It's all boys own stuff, and all the better for that, enjoying and exciting without the danger.
Shan
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Post by johnson1941 on Sept 24, 2023 8:26:35 GMT -6
Shan,
The Rees job was to steal horses. At least 6 of those who crossed with Reno (& that didnt lag with Custer) did so. I think we agree at the least that group was on the east flat (the one across the river from the timber north of Weir Hill and south of Weir Peaks) when they did. They came up somewhere along that flat. They say exactly where - if you believe them (and why not?).
Where matters because there was a lot going on where they came up. They saw the rear of Custer’s command. They saw stragglers. Stragglers saw them. Thompson. There were 5 Sioux. There were down horses.
Where they came up is key in understanding where all that took place. MY stance and theirs, is it all happened, based on numeours witnesses, around Weir Hill. Others want to ignore a lot of what the Rees (and lots of other witnesses) had to say, and prefer to think it happened around Weir Peaks. That is over a 1/2 mile difference and goes along way to predicting whether you believe all the other witnesses and custer command went down Cedar. Or you don’t and think he went down around Weir Peaks.
Until someone - anyone - can post a witness saying otherwise, I'll believe the scouts that they went up just where they said they did. It all makes sense. It all gels, and it all ties in well with a dozen other witnesses about the other things going on there. And most important of all, so far, there is NO reason to doubt them. None.
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Post by johnson1941 on Sept 24, 2023 8:47:15 GMT -6
I'll post this again - seems some missed it...
Little Sioux narrates...
1) The soldiers were forming a line at right angle to the timber and then the firing began...
2) Little Sioux was about half way to the line of soldiers with others all around him, and then he saw Bloody Knife swing in from the timber along which, from the direction of the Dakota camp, he was driving three horses.. ..Little Sioux paid no attention and Bloody Knife turned back without waiting to see what became of the horses.
3) With Little Sioux there were Red Star, Strikes Two, and Boy Chief. As they stood there together looking across the river they saw at the foot of the ridge (about where they were to cross later) three women and two children coming across the flat running and hurrying along as best they could, on a slant toward the river.
4)Little Sioux fired twice at them and so did Red Star. Then all four of the scouts rode through the timber toward the river to kill them.
5)But just at this point they saw across the river on the flat a large herd of about two hundred Dakota horses in the sage brush, so they stopped pursuing the women and children and started after the horses. Little Sioux had no trouble at either bank, he rode his horse swimming. On the opposite side there was-much sage brush and willows and the four all crossed together.
6) They started to head the horses upstream. Red Star rode farthest to the left, then Boy Chief, then Strikes Two, and last of all Little Sioux.
7) While they were driving the horses he first saw the tepees of the Dakotas, three-quarters of a mile away across the river, just the tops of the poles and very many of them. They had ridden farther ahead than the battle line of the soldiers, that is, farther downstream in order to head off and drive the horses back to where they could get them away from the Dakotas.
8) They had hardly headed the horses before the Dakotas came across the river from the village where he had seen the tops of the tepees
9) and from there they carried on a running fight up the valley for over a mile with the pursuing Dakotas chasing and firing at them.
10) They reached and crossed the high bluff, at which point was the hardest fighting...
They went up the bluffs "Just about where Reno retreated up". Soldier said "I saw Ree scouts who had captured horses come up the ridge...Where they came up the river ran right along the foot of the bluff". "They crossed the ridge where they did because it curved in front of them and they did not turn out of their course."
Someone wants to explain why this is not what happened, based on witnesses and facts, NOT opinion about how hard it might have been or how you think YOU would have done it, have at it - please!!
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Post by johnson1941 on Sept 24, 2023 9:27:24 GMT -6
Strikes Two
1) The Sioux horses captured by Bloody Knife now stampeded and crossed the river, and we, I and above six, put in after them…some of them ran back toward Sioux village, but we turned them and got the whole bunch together.
2) Little Sioux and Bull-in-the-Water helped to get the horses over the ridge. We drove the horses up high bank on east side and Stabbed now joined us, making eight in the party and soon Strike the Lodge and Assiniboine came up, making ten, and we drove horses and got them in a good position.
3) While we were driving horses up hill from river, some soldiers passed by and fired on us by mistake, and one of the captured horses was killed.
4) Here were all the remaining scouts who did not cross the river.
5) The Rees who captured the ponies ran them up the valley a few miles to get them out of sight and left them with holders.
6) While we were going back we saw the pack train come along.
How far was it from place ran them up the bluffs to Reno corral? "Just about where Reno retreated up says Strikes Two."
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Post by johnson1941 on Sept 24, 2023 10:02:13 GMT -6
Yep - pony stealers were 1st on West side, moving to timber area when narrative begins. Bloody knife drove the 1st 3 horses. "The Sioux horses captured by Bloody Knife now stampeded and crossed the river, and we, I and above six, put in after them." BK horses headed to east side. Yep - Women & children were on east side (seen 'about where the Rees went up'). Yep - big herd was seen on east side. Rees crossed to east side. Started herd moving up stream. Dakotas pursued to east side. Yep - Running fight upstream on flat on east side.
Agreed completely! Cheers!
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Post by shan on Sept 24, 2023 12:20:21 GMT -6
Rosebud,
Just to simplfy things, As the Ree scounts moved on down ahead of Renos troops, they may have been as much as half a mile ahead, it would seem that they were all in the same group at the start, but as they neared the timber, it seems they began to split into two groups. Blody Knife rode on ahead and went into the timber by himself whilst one group moved west onto the benchlands to the left, hoping to steal some ponies from the main heard, whilst the other, staying close to the river, are the ones we're having this debate about.
They, it seems, first saw some Squaws and children trying to get back to the village on the east side of the river, and after having fired at them, they then crossed the river in the hope of killing them. It was then that they saw the small herd of ponies further on down grazing on a large open area near the bluffs. Hope that helps.
Shan
on his ow,
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Post by herosrest on Sept 25, 2023 3:26:50 GMT -6
This is nicely done. This link doesn't work so well in pushing alternate modern theory of events. Now, if we look here and extract the given co-ordinates ( 45°31'25"N 107°24'28"W ) then Google Maps goes here. Is that cool or what...... Let the Pentagon know about it and hey presto, no more lost lieutenants. Of course, when the Charley Reynolds marker was placed, it sat near the road in the immediate area of the red building owned today by CBHMA. The very opening scene of bluffs link in this blast from the disintegrated past, show terrain along the valley which was ascended during the battle. The video here link looks down on the flat Sioux ponies were taken from.
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Post by johnson1941 on Sept 25, 2023 7:30:14 GMT -6
1st video starts out well…a nice pan around deep ravine to see relationships to other terrain.
The other locations they always stop panning before they show something interesting/new. Ah well, last one does a better job of it.
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Post by herosrest on Sept 25, 2023 9:29:34 GMT -6
It's a bit of a game which falls into various theories. A more modern discovery of the Reno fighting in the valley has it sat on the red roofed building. Traditional view is GO and beyond. Using either location can impact where the stealers grabbed the herd. The battle locations are re-located time and time again to introduce considerably more than confusion.
Regards.
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Post by johnson1941 on Sept 25, 2023 10:22:21 GMT -6
Here's another period map from Norris giving another good notion of what was what river & flat-wise...."Reno's position" extends a bit. River lines up quite well with Wilson. Here is more Little Sioux to explain it again... WMC c7/12 One Feather, Strikes Two, Red Star, Whole Buffalo, Boy Chief & Little Sioux went up ahead after horses. We saw three Sioux squaws and two boys leaving village and we got after them. Squaws were on east side of river opposite timber. All six got after squaws, but One Feather and Whole Buffalo took after two Sioux horses. We pursued on after squaws and ran upon a big bunch of horses and took after them and let women go. These horses were on east side opposite point of timber We did not drive Sioux horses to the west side, but kept them on the east side and ran them across the flat and went up through the hills with them. As we were going up hill the soldiers fired on us and wounded Boy Chief’s horse. The Sioux were tight after us and followed up into hills. Among these soldiers was Stabbed who took off his hat and waved it to stop the soldiers firing. These soldiers were on top of hill. They were the rear of a body of soldiers going downstream on top of the hills. There were a few straggling shots fired at us.
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Post by mj1873 on Sept 25, 2023 10:55:50 GMT -6
The distance from Reno's assault area into the village can be covered quite quickly at a gallop-- thus anything is possible IMO. Could the Rees have reached Gall's tipi? Sure, but they would have to recognize it in order to target him specifically. Some theorize that Bloody Knife was with them and was looking for Gall, as those two had a bitter blood feud going.
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Post by herosrest on Sept 26, 2023 8:19:33 GMT -6
If you enjoy the Ree accounts then give Norris's book a twirl. The Chapter on his time there and the snippets scattered through give an interesting insight of genius. You know, he was getting $10k per year for running Yellowstone. 1876 dollars.
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Post by herosrest on Sept 26, 2023 9:44:32 GMT -6
Anyway, the Ree scouts did not climb the bluffs to Reno hill using the flats upriver of the bend kicking the river out from the bluffs - where the river cuts right into the bluffs. Applying the Arikara mile to that given helps locate the position of the pony herd when it was collateralised by the Rees. That is, apply a Ree mile from the river dog-leg.
Those scouts, apparently had Sioux (Black Moon?) Right up their six if the opening phase of their trek is all they referred to. Remember that post Reno's next retreat, Sioux and Cheyennes pursued and engaged the retreat of the PS in two covering groups towards Powder River Depot, and recovered many of the animals stolen. It seems that at least one of the Cheyenne in the pursuit was killed in the fighting. He was painted up with red and yellow each half of his body. Red Yellow Man, or Yellow Red Man, I forget. The Crows, or if not then the Rees, told this and obviously it is Cheyenne tradition but they were sworn to STFU for a 100 years.
We can apply bounds to the proposition using the known river courses, dry and wet; we can then figure out how a small group of scouts picked an easy route up the bluffs with some seriously determined and p'd off Sioux chasing, whilst soldiers above shot them up*. We can, to a degree, use the accounts of the scout named Soldier to timeline events on the heights in regards Stabbed who carried a message to Custer from soldiers to the east. We have a good idea of what the message was from Soldier, who was met and overtaken by Stabbed. Soldier indicated where the advance went over the ridge.
In regards the entire valley fight, it boils down to Varnum's sighting of the grey horse troop on the bluff, its timing, and where he indicated the grey horse troop was when he saw them. This is too simple for most students although it excludes the Cedar Coulee sillyness. I agree with Donahue about Cedar Coulee but findhis quest to deliver a tangible Ford D poorly lacking in reality and a load of old Crow.
There ya go. Did you get into the scout's pack train, yet. Five mules and carrying a cooking stove and ammunition boxes. The scouts were issued the 'Long Tom' rather than cavalry carbine.
I'm going to chill but cannot remember which pill to take.... Red of blue?
Ho hum...... I don't want to be up all night again.
* There are Indian accounts of blue on blue incidents but which have not been associated with the scouts. Like it or not, shootingup the scouts is blue on blue.
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Post by herosrest on Sept 26, 2023 9:56:31 GMT -6
Price Measures $50 in 1876 has a relative price worth of $1,477.51 today using the Consumer Price Index (CPI) $50 in 1876 has a relative price worth of $1,301.66 today using the GDP Deflator. The Wage, Income, Household Expenditure Measures $50 in 1876 has a relative wage of $11,411.02 paid to an Unskilled Worker today. $50 in 1876 has a relative wage of $15,688.60 paid to a Production Worker today. $50 in 1876 has a relative Per Capita GDP of $22,152.04 today. $50 in 1876 would be the same proportion of what the average household spent on Consumer Goods and Services as $N/A is today. The Output Measure $50 in 1876 would be the same proportion of output as measured by GDP that $159,743.71 is today. measuringworth.com/dollarvaluetoday/relativevalue.php?year_source=1876
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Post by herosrest on Sept 26, 2023 10:36:56 GMT -6
There is some erstwhile but considerably post battle evidence of Arikara story telling history which proves remarkably sustaining but far from one hundred percent accurate. This is the simple reality of the practice where the easy way to remember is tell the tale once and stick to it, over and again through time; with desendants doing their best likewise. The problem with the mishmash of participnats which Bede and Grant assembled is their differing routes and timing in ascending the bluffs *. Some even went back down and mixed it up with Sioux on the flats and others seem to have tried to reach (rescue) Custer. Kind of guys they were. As they came back, Weir went out and Edgerley met their return with Company D as he followed his company commander. This reality is hardly ever, if at all, factored into realistic study of events because..... let's face it - Reno labelled the Res as cowards jack asses, who ran and didn't stop until Powder River. He was the author of that myth where in fact, they simply followed Custer's escape and evade orders after the seige of Reno's Hill, began. That was the point of the book, and stated clearly although not as pointedly, in the forward. Remember that you get nowhere these days by calling, or even hinting that the guy had four legs and a tail covered in mange. I believe it is a family thing along French lines and of course one of them gained a half of the tracts of land in the Louisiana Purchase which doubled the area of the confederated states. That obviously is the hogwash of grannies tail but quite validly trotted out and I believe, from when I last checked, tested in the Courts. Just imagine owning a half of the USA...... Wooot... * This then is told by participants in succession around campfires and slowly turns to blamange and sometimes with cherry on top, over time, despite best intentions. That's life and is why historians test verbal and written accounts rigorously. Walter M. Camp did this but just wasn't very good at it but, of course, he didn't have cut & paste at his fingertips of and exponentially growing source of material. No siree, if his subject was in Bismarck then he travelled there for interview, or stuck a stamp on it. How utterly frustrating that reality would be today. Some time ago, I realised a way to improve economic efficiency by 14% in very simple manner. This would be reducing the day to 21 hours and adding an eight one to each week. People can't see it but say you earn 50k, that would go up to 57k. People just don't want to think that way, though - go figure. Several groups of scouts were active on the flats, bluffs and in between and some of the accounts juxtapose events into one another and it becomes a little like accordion (squeezebox) to unravel although perfectly normal reality in translations after 34 years. Aaaaah............
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