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Post by sirfrancis on Sept 15, 2023 4:49:14 GMT -6
Hi people, Hoping someone can clarify this for me. So apparently the Ree scouts are held responsible for this act, although they denied it. What I don’t understand is how/when did they do it? As far as I know Reno’s battalion did not enter the village but stopped short and was repelled. How then did a small group of scouts get through the Sioux warriors that were holding off Reno? I know these scouts captured ponies, but I believe they were on the western slopes outside the village. Or did these scouts charge the village well ahead of Reno when the village was still unaware?
Ok thanks guys
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Post by shan on Sept 15, 2023 5:59:00 GMT -6
sirfrancis
Now whilst I'm no expert, I give you my answer as far as I understand it. Once the action got under way, the Rees rode ahead of Renos men by as much as half a mile ( I would imagine that being fired up, they'd have probably been galloping whilst Renos men were still trotting or even cantering,} Now the Rees in Question were those who rode a little East of Reno, tending to keep close to the river, whilst the other group, those who were riding to his left, ended up on the western slopes.
Those Rees who were close to the river caught sight of a bunch of ponies on the other side on the far bank, in an area of flat ground, where, as some people believe, some Brules were camping, but that's another matter. They ~ the Rees, promptly recrossed the river to get at the ponies, which was the main part in the mission, and as they began to pass though a patch of scrub, they saw a number of woman and children fleeing.
It's thought that this group had probably been out foraging for roots and turnipa and such like, which, if so, tells you just how unaware the Indians were of Custers approach. Anyway, it appears that the Rees immediatly opened fire on them: and its worth noting here that women and children were considered fair game if in combat as far as most Indian tribes are concerned, killing several, the figure is unclear, but some say four woman a two children were killed. There is a Cheyenne drawing by Little Wolf which shows four dead women, one of whom seems to be in the river itself, plus a dead child, a drawing which appears to depict this event. As far as I'm aware, there is no definive proof that members of Galls family were amongst the slain in this episode, although it certainly seems posible.
Interestingly, this episode provided the first firing in the battle, and as such, Renos troops were probaly aware of it as the rode down the the valley, and quite possibly, Custer himself heard it or indeed even may have witnessed this as he rode along the bluffs.
Shan
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Post by shan on Sept 15, 2023 13:37:20 GMT -6
Thanks Rosebud,
I've not seen that list before. So, one wife and two daughters then, interesting for I seem to remember him quoted on one ocassion saying that he lost four fwives and two children but I may have got that wrong, but then I've always felt that the story of the death of Galls family and his supposed subsequent remark, quote, "After that my heart was bad and so I killed with my hatchet." sounded more like the out pourings of some over excited young reporter looking for a good headline.
Shan
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Post by sirfrancis on Sept 15, 2023 16:52:26 GMT -6
Ok I suspected perhaps the Ree charged ahead of Reno. They had some big cojones doing that!
Now if Gall did indeed say ‘his heart was bad’ because his family was killed, it would seem odd for that family to have been seen walking about for many years perfectly healthy. He would be deemed to have spoken with ‘fork tongue’!
Francis
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Jenny
Full Member
Posts: 200
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Post by Jenny on Sept 15, 2023 19:20:45 GMT -6
Likely stray bullets killed them. Gall probably had a new wife by the time he surrendered. Just guessing.
Jenny
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Post by sirfrancis on Sept 15, 2023 23:32:03 GMT -6
I read some of the Crows were taking pot shots into the Village from across the eastern heights. But that was further north I think. I suppose with Reno’s battalion firing volleys in the direction of the village, some NAs would likely be hit. But for his whole family to be wiped out by stray shots, would be unlikely or just extremely bad luck….
Fred Wagner wrote he had ‘wives’ and children killed. As a ‘big deal’ in the Sioux community especially after the battle, he would have pick of the squaws for sure if he needed new ones…
Francis
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Post by johnson1941 on Sept 16, 2023 0:17:13 GMT -6
Little Sioux - chasing squaws (and 2 boys), and horses… Rees “let women go”, captured horses and ran them up east side between timber and reno retreat…actually got shot at by rear of Custer’s troops and saw stragglers (i.e. Thompson) with horses down, surrounded by Sioux etc. All that latter around Weir Hill/SSR saddle (Martins Ridge). Strikes Two “Did those who captured ponies see anything of Custer and the five companies when they ascended the bluffs or before? Yes passed near him and were shot at by a few of the soldiers. They must therefore have come up just after Knipe left. Aug. 7, 1910. How long before battle began did Rees capture Sioux horses? Quite a while. How far was it from place ran them up the bluffs to Reno corral. Just about where Reno retreated up says Strikes Two.” {wonder if 1 of these scouts is who thompson saw with tethered squaw? Would have been much later so maybe timing wrong}
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Post by noggy on Sept 16, 2023 9:05:07 GMT -6
I think Hardorff flat out claimed the whole thing to be BS, and pointed out Gall being payed before telling about this. I tried to find the direct quote, which I believe I saw here, where members of his own family said he was....well, he could say things. White Bull called Gall "a great advertiser", and it seems at least pretty sure he tried to inflate his own role during the fight. With success. But Herendeen sid some women were killed by the Ree scouts. If I were one of them, I'd refuse to admit it too. Gall spending time searching for his family makes sense in him not really being too involved in the fight until later on (I think Michno's analyzis of his actions during the fight makes sense).
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Post by johnson1941 on Sept 16, 2023 12:17:45 GMT -6
Thanks, Noggy! "Our men did not kill any squaws, but the Ree Indian scouts did. The bodies of six squaws were found in the little ravine." www.astonisher.com/archives/museum/geo_herendeen_little_big_horn.htmlAnd Miller... "There is some evidence that several Sioux women out digging turnips were killed by the Arikara scouts. Gall, a Hunkpapa, later said that his two wives and three children were slain by the Arikaras during their attempt to capture the hostile pony herd; but Red Horse, a Minneconjou chief, claimed to have been out with the women and reported no casualties among them. In the light of various misstatements made by Gall, this part of his story may well be in error. George Herendeen, white scout with Reno, was quoted in a Bismarck communique published July 8, 1876, in the New York Herald, as saying, "Our men did not kill any squaws, but the Ree [Arikara] Indian scouts did. The bodies of six squaws were found in the little ravine...... None of my Indian informants ever mentioned any casualties among the women at Little Big Horn and it is doubtful whether any were killed"
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Post by herosrest on Sept 19, 2023 7:18:17 GMT -6
I'm somewhere between Bittadon and Stowford on the hunt and not a darn otter anywhere in sight or snoring. At least the rain has let up. Signal is very poor and we have fallen back on our goto smoke technology but the winds remain damnably interuptive. Isn't life a female dog when you really need a calm balmy day.
There was amongst Crook's scouts of summer '76, a William someone or other who was a noted frontiersman of some note and he was literate and he wrote. He wrote books and I remember that one title involved Kaleidascope blah blah blah. There were possibly three or four titles to his name and one was a re-write mashup type work. One book is an excellent study of beaver. In another book he told of one of the Ree's later with Custer, killing a Sioux girl. It may have been Bobtail Bull or whatever - too long ago to be sharp. There were bad types on the loose across all sides and that is nothing new.
We do know from Ree accounts that Bloody Knife got way ahead of Reno's advance down the valley before returning to the halting command as it deployed to FoF (Fight on Foot) - now, Gall and BK, really, really, did not get along with one another. So, perhaps there is an unknown story.
Cheyenne White Bull's (Ice) daughter was swimming in the river and had to make a mile or more under cover to get back to the lodge when the attack began.
The Ree scout 'Soldier' mentioned Bobtail Bull or some such, way out beyond the soldiers and up to something. He was killed during the retreat across the river.
Whilst we know of the ponystealers raid, we don't have the whole picture and BK got his three ponies from terrain south of the river, whilst the better known grab was from north of the river on terrain in advance of Reno's fight. An interesting difficulty here, is the idea the ponystealers ran their herd up the bluffs in the area of Reno Hill. That is simply more round and hairy detrious which litters this battle's study.
Tha twin peaks of Weir as seen today, were not like that in 1876 but the small hills on and along the bluffs below Weir, look pretty much as they did in 1886 and from some angles mimic Weir. The skirmishline with dog image, is a location along Deep Coulee. Precisely where a skirmish line can be expected and where there is evidence of it.
I have a question.is Finley Hill a part of Deep Coulee, which was long called North Medicine Tail?
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Post by herosrest on Sept 19, 2023 8:57:00 GMT -6
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Post by johnson1941 on Sept 19, 2023 14:25:24 GMT -6
Fortunately this notion comes from the pony stealers themselves. THEY said where they came up, so its easy to buy into.
Any other notion needs some primary back-up, not opinion. They were there after all.
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Post by herosrest on Sept 20, 2023 2:31:11 GMT -6
Actually, they did not say what you and others interpret. This is an interesting little aspect of the battle. Just because students interpret matter of factly and unfactly with language, does not make it so.
They went over the bluffs in the area of Reno Hill... Is the given idea. The one trotted forth.
Therefore, show me the route taken by the PS's after capturing a herd and taking it up the bluffs.
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Post by herosrest on Sept 20, 2023 2:48:55 GMT -6
I would appreciate you sketching out the PS route up the bluffs on Camp's sketch map in the '76 book. I cannot link to the page image at the moment here in Devon because an otter stole out charger.
Rather like the river loop immediately below Reno's retreat crissings, and the work done on the GO bends during 1894/5 ti proress the railway through the valley - things weren't what they are today.
The Ree's crossed the river and moved downriver. They went further downriver than the troops FoF line, to take the herd. Having taken a herd the PS did not cross a river again. How then in the bejewelled delta opals adorning Thor's lesser warhammer, did they go up the bluffs onto Reno Hill?
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Post by johnson1941 on Sept 20, 2023 5:13:48 GMT -6
Nope...not playing 'dispute Herorest's OPINION' game....not worth the effort since its make-believe. AND the actual route was taken 150 years ago. YOU show me someone - anyone - saying something to support your theory. Almost everyone who survived Reno attack made it up those bluffs somewhere in that area. Some made it up and down several times. Lots of ravines, buffalo trails, etc. So YOU may be able to figure it out! Meanwhile, I'll go with... Soldier "Just after this I saw Ree scouts who had captured horses come up the ridge and Strikes Two said: "Leader, I will give you this spotted horse that is leading the herd." Where they came up the river ran right along the foot of the bluff."Strikes 2 "How long before battle began did Rees capture Sioux horses? Quite a while. How far was it from place ran them up the bluffs to Reno corral? Just about where Reno retreated up says Strikes Two." Little Sioux "They had hardly headed the horses before the Dakotas came across the river from the village where he had seen the tops of the tepees and from there they carried on a running fight up the valley for over a mile with the pursuing Dakotas chasing and firing at them. They reached and crossed the high bluff, at which point was the hardest fighting, and the Dakotas chased them back on the trail seven or eight miles.....They crossed the ridge because it curved in front of them and they did not turn out of their course. Where they crossed the ridge, was a mile below the first crossing and about three-quarters of a mile from the second crossing." Hare "While Reno was watering, Hare went on down valley with the scouts, and about 1/2 way (1 mile) down to skirmish line some of the Rees took after a herd of Sioux ponies. An Indian with these ponies turned and fired on the Rees but they chased him and captured some of the ponies and ran them off. The remainder of the Rees went on down and went into timber after Reno and his men did and that they forded the river a long way farther downstream than Reno's men did. He thinks about half way between timber and where Reno retreated across. Says he remembers seeing the Rees after he got to top of hill on retreat." Varnum re: the Reno retreat route and just where the river comes right at the foot of the bluff: “Immediately on the other bank of the stream is a very high bluff that went up probably, I should judge one-third of the way as I remember it now..." Don't ya LOVE IT when all these different witnesses gell so perfectly?! We KNOW the area they came up the bluffs/crossed the ridge. Busy place that area +/-3/4 mile below the corral. Attachments:
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