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Post by johnson1941 on Sept 27, 2023 15:25:12 GMT -6
Yes there is NO NEED to repeat...try to
Post some facts. POST SOME BACK-UP!
If there is testimony about DeRudio seeing Benteen - even up the valley - then post it. We all learn then!
And IF there is something saying a sighting of Benteen that happens where DeRudio very distinctly said he saw Custer...that would even be better! Otherwise it is just more unsupported musings.
Here - I'll help...
"A. The time Major Reno’s command went out of that timber, the Indians were following him, but when they got near the river some of the Indians yelled and all stopped running and some of the Indians pointed up the stream. When I saw and heard that, I expected Captain Benteen was coming, and I looked up and saw Captain Benteen’s column coming towards the same ford where we crossed, but when the troops got to a certain place I saw the rear of the column turn around and disappear over a bluff on the right bank" {after the retreat}
See how easy? NOW - we can compare that Benteen sighting near ford A AFTER the retreat, to his Custer sighting at Weir Hill BEFORE the retreat..
"A. I did not see any part of the column of General Custer. The only observation I made was while I was in the woods. General Custer, Lieutenant Cooke and another man I could not recognize came to the highest point of the bluff and waved their hats and made motions like they were cheering, and pretty soon disappeared." {before the retreat '4-5-6 minutes'}
"A. It was on the highest point on the right bank of the creek, just below where Dr. DeWolf was killed." {AKA Weir Hill / Benteen's G - which of course martin & numerous others confirm}
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Post by herosrest on Sept 27, 2023 16:25:26 GMT -6
DeRudio thought he saw Custer, Cooke and another. Emphasis on thought. He saw figures upriver and concluded (rightly) that it was Benteen. He was incorrect in his surmise about seeing Custer. He also saw one half the Indians fighting Reno, go up the bluffs east of the river to attack Custer. This was corroborated by Patterson Hughes at the time in a letter and map of june 30, and by Nelson Miles in 1878. Sheridan was told the same in 1877. At 1,000 yards, DeRudio would not have recognised his wife and daughters stood on the bluffs and his idea was wrong. His men were out of control and abandoned him in the urge to get to their horses and retreat. He got left behind, surrounded and something else.... Erm..... Can't remember. Hang on..... His horse ran away? ?. He had a good day.
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Post by johnson1941 on Sept 27, 2023 16:44:07 GMT -6
So Girard, Varnum and DeRudio and Newell, etc. all saw Custer et al in a progression down the bluffs around the same time (+/-10mins maybe?)- but DeRudio was wrong. Even though Martin says he was up there for 10 mins. Got it. You THINK DeRudio was wrong. Emphasis on "think". You have formed an unsupported.. OPINION!!! Hmmm...Was his wife and daughter gonna be in buckskin pants blue shirts, and sporting HUGE beards??? Not gonna agree...too many witnesses confirm that what deRudio says he saw happened where he saw it. And VERY close to when he would have seen it. I trust the witnesses. Next!
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Post by herosrest on Sept 27, 2023 17:00:20 GMT -6
Actually, I think that he kept hold of his mount. Anyways, here are a couple of obscure points which settle the matter in terms of what is known.
What color was Trumpeter Martin's horse?
Where was Reno when Martin sighted that battalion after leaving. Custer in MTC to find benteen?
That should wrap things up unless you wannt to get into Custer and Thompson at the river. Since we know where Thompson's Ford is and Camp eventually found that out after surmising that it was Ford B instead; even if Custer was in that area of the bluffs up high - DeRudio could not see it.
DeRudio did not see Custer on the bluffs. Varnum did by seeing grey horses and marked it on a map as the saddle going over the ridge. That is the huge ridge. The biggest one there and nothing to do with the bluffs other than terminating there with a little dip, now larger after road construction and forming runoffs or coulees which fall into MTC.
Martin's horse was a sorrel roan. Reno was skirmishing when Martin saw the battalion in the valley. The little dip is precisely where Varum indicated it to be and precisely as described. At Chicago, Varnum could not make sense of Maguire's map, so a reply was manufactured through if and or but approximation. He could not relate his recollections to the map.
Custer was at Benteen's 'G' spot site for the briefest of observations per Curley. So, was Curley there.... And on it goes. WMRH or Goes Ahead perhaps, recalled that Custer held mass and preyed. My kees aren't up to it these days but bless you son, any way.
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Post by johnson1941 on Sept 27, 2023 17:11:19 GMT -6
Varnum didn't mark the map - he SAID it was 'about 1/4 mile below Reno command as indicated' - hardly that far north - certainly not over a mile away; also SAID 'a little farther down than where we struck the bluffs" & 'not quite as far down as 2'. {DeRudio marked Custer at 7 - like 100% nailed it - pretty good considering the map}. Varnum did mark Grahams map as grays being IN Cedar..we posted that a while ago. Which dip did Varnum mention? "Assuming that the position of Major Reno’s command on the hill is correct it was probably a quarter of a mile below that or something like that" Martin said Custer was up on Weir Hill 10minutes - take your pick. Certainly it was long enough to look at valley/some village, and to wave his hat and cheer. "Custer first halted on Weir's hill and took a look at village" "Then Custer halted command on the high ridge about 10 minutes and officers looked at village through glasses. "
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Post by johnson1941 on Sept 27, 2023 17:36:25 GMT -6
Naa - let's not again - if you can't get the easy stuff like where the Rees came up and where everyone said Custer 1st saw the village/turned down south coulee, you still won't get where Thompson stalled and went down the buffalo trail to the river. (which is...just here..)
NOW we're talking!!
Link, Please!?
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Post by herosrest on Sept 27, 2023 23:49:49 GMT -6
It wasn't possible to come up the bluffs as you describe. That is a result of the terrain features. Up the bluffs is not up the river.
One of the difficulties with participants orienting to cardinal points is that the river is used to do it by using the river axis along the valley, as north south and what is generally and specificallly the right bank as east. This confusion is long understood and is particularly general to Indian accounts.
3411 or Benteen's 'G' on his map, just north of RBDS is not Weir Hill, no matter how hard you make that to be so. It is where, according to Benteen and therefore Martin, where Custer gained his first view of the valley from the bluffs. It happens to be also, in the locale which Reno's retreat made its retreat crossing. A party of scouts left behind in the valley crossed downriver of Reno and took cover in timber east of the river as the troops routed across and up the bluffs. The pony stealers had come up the bluffs in coming up the river from even further downriver and moved east in doing it.
In pitching their camp circles, the Cheyenne for example faced their tipis towards the rising sun which is east. That practice introduced the complications with their telling of cardinal directionss and is a general practice which riddles accounts of events and leaves a wake of difficulties and confusion.
Rather than deal with the scouts coming upriver why not try figuring out where they came up the bluffs with the stolen pony herd.
You made use of a location described as 'point of timber' but unfortunately there were more than one of them.
The pony stealers crossed the river from Reno to the right bank, at least below or using the bend of the river which doglegs south from the bluffs. Had they crossed upriver of that dogleg then they would have gone up the bluffs to progress further downriver. This is not mentioned in their accounts and therefore didn't happen.
So, take the furthest possible place a croosing could be made to progress beyond the valley skirmishline and apply a radius downriver of a mile in length to indicate where they rode back from with the herd. Having left Reno and crossed the river to the right bank (east) they moved at least a mile or maybe less, to effect capture of the Sioux ponies.
Little Sioux mentions the crossing by distances but have fun with that. There are different locations given today for the location of the Reno skirmishline in the valley which complicates deciding where the pony stealers went, and they themselves were only able to salute general impressions of locations since they were fairly busy with what was going on and what they were doing. That was running a herd of ponies and mules up the river by crossing or climbing the bluffs. I bumped into Fallon's video promoting her book in 2017 and it made me smile. I'll see if I can dig out the link.
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Post by herosrest on Sept 28, 2023 0:42:19 GMT -6
siobhanfallon.com/Hello....Here's her fascinating Channel and pucker. Up the bluff is not upriver. Whilst Camp had the practice of engineering about him, the tribes had advanced to tipi pole chopping and limited precision unless sticking arrows into things and bringing the two together, much later put men on the moon but not in 1876. Up the bluffs and up the river are kind of perpendicular. That is about right angles and the bluffs go straight up and in places, that is around one hundred feet in elevation by remarkable gradients. Enjoy.
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Post by herosrest on Sept 28, 2023 0:54:55 GMT -6
I don't see where Martin stated Custer spent 10 minutes looking into the valley and doubt considerably that that is so. Of course youmightbe right about itbut a duck is more likely to swim than prove it.
I am generally very comfortable with my battle knowledge and accept that relying onmemory these days is fallable... Or is it fallible but of course is no less reliable than a jerking knee.
How do you go up the bluffs at Reno by crossing the dogleg going in the opposite direction? A big clue is that it is impossible regardless of evidence surmised to conclude it is possible.
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Post by johnson1941 on Sept 28, 2023 3:35:35 GMT -6
No way! Impossible! Did their horse have wings?!?
LOL!!!
Sure ok. Take it up with the dozen witnesses who say otherwise. {And you forgot according to DeRudio he also confirmed this location specifically with Benteen and therefore Martin too…} “Custer first halted on Weir's hill and took a look at village"
If you can’t (or won’t) get the easy stuff confirmed by so many people who were there, no wonder you’ll never get the stuff one needs some logic to figure out.
but you keep doing you!
one more time… IF you have the map you said you have from 1877 showing otherwise - POST IT! If not then youre obviously wrongand making stuff up.
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Post by johnson1941 on Sept 28, 2023 3:52:33 GMT -6
ONCE AGAIN - NO ONE said they crossed the river at the one and only location AS SHOWN ON PERIOD maps - NOT GOOGLE - where the river is at the foot of the bluffs at the highest point (aka Weir Hill) near where Reno retreated UP..instead - that is where they traveled up stream to w/horses and then went up and over the high bluff just like they said. They were already DOWNRIVER of it on the flat: They had already come down the valley from fording. They had already seen BK w/horses near the timber. They had already seen squaws on the flat at the bluff. They had already had a ‘small skirmish’ (hmm did they kill squaws?) They had already re-crossed to the flat near the timber to get herd. They had already gotten the horses and were already having a running fight upstream on the flat. Wait - Unless “upstream” is a cardinal direction?! Lol! iF you have the map you said you have from 1877 showing what youre still trying to say - POST IT!! Psst - WHO CARES? as NO ONE has said this. See like 5 previous posts restating the same. Wow - are you high?!? Seriously? They tell you this. I repeat what they said. See like 100 previous posts. Actually read what they and other witnesses say and you too will know. (But more likely not belive them cause… ) Is that an Arikira mile radius?! Lol! been there done that - see previous PERIOD maps with proposed routes. Dont forget the running fight w/ the horses upstream on the flat across from the timber till the ridge curves in front of them where the river is right at the foot of the bluff near where reno retreated UP. ( just to be clear cause you struggle this is NOT, NOT reno hill) Attachments:
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Post by johnson1941 on Sept 28, 2023 4:08:45 GMT -6
Nope. You have to read better. The REES describe exactly which timber they mean and what happened there.
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Post by herosrest on Sept 28, 2023 4:57:55 GMT -6
No, no, no..... they describe what they did which was fairly rigorously translated and checked for the time (1920's) and you then jumble into your understanding of Walter M. Camp's work with which he hadn't a clue, when he started out and was undertaking his interviews. I haven't hit up the material on the mistake with Thompson's Ford versus Ford B because it is reasonably well understood by those with an interest in PT. Gerry Shultz's work on Thompson will certainly deal the topic. This might interest you, Fort Custer in Little Bighorn valley. If you return a mile from somewhere that you stole something, then you went at least a mile to get there. Knowing that you will need to cross a river to get back the way you came with the stolen goods, means that any reasonably capable brain will make an easy or easiest escape route. You are convinced that the pony stealers arrived somewhere near the bluffs on Reno Hill. On you go, and just like Walter, years from now, you will be updated and updating but of course may have lost interest or followed Walter. I do believe that Weir stood in the area of Benteen's Custer's Last Look spot, where he went with Martin - Custer, that is. And when in that vicinity, there was a bit of a curfuffle over cavalry horses seen below and this was mentioned in various testimony such as Culbertsons. You see, various people, at various times, were all over various parts of the bluffs.
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Post by johnson1941 on Sept 28, 2023 5:06:15 GMT -6
Keep making stuff up. Its fine. Really - i get it! You truly believe youre right based on your own theories with no supporting evidence but more of your own opinion. Psst maybe its not all those witnesses who all agree, or Camp or the other interviewers, or Wilson's nor Norris' map, or everyone else since who agrees/d with them (like Hardorff in Indian Vews of the Custer Fight*), or even me who reposts/relies very heavily on what THE WITNESSES say…maybe its you?… And thats Ok! This can be a safe space! *(so please don't get ruffled by "near reno Hill" - that does NOT mean "AT Reno Hill) *
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Post by johnson1941 on Sept 28, 2023 5:46:03 GMT -6
Almost 100% a given - Edgerly pretty much says as much - which I speculate is why they called it Weir's Hill.
Of course that was as D (& soon the advance) was moving to Weir Peaks, it was NOT 5-6 minutes before Reno started his retreat when DeRudio saw Custer right where Martin said Custer was getting his 1st look at the village - on Weir's Hill.
Edgerly "After going a few hundred yards I swung off to the right with the troop and went into a little valley which must have been the one followed by Custer and his men, or nearly parallel to it, and moved right toward the great body of Indians whom we had already seen from the highest point. ... After we had gone a short distance down the valley Col. Weir, who had remained to our left on the bluff, saw a large number of Indians coming toward us, and motioned for me to swing around with the troop to where he was, which I did. " ... "When Edgerly turned down to right down the hollow, Weir standing on high point signaled that Indians were coming & he therefore turned back and circled over to left & crossed his track & took high peak still in advance of Weir."
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