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Post by herosrest on Sept 28, 2023 6:12:42 GMT -6
Your highest point and Weir's Hill and Weir Peak need some examination since what you give as the hill does not offer views of the Custer Battlefield. For Edgerley, and of course Weir, to view Custer battlefield, they were on or beyond the horizon offered by the highground west of Reno Hill. That then would be what you see as Weir Peak and from Which areas of the Custer Field can be seen although not the eastern flanks of battle ridge which in defilade. For Edgerley seeing the Custer Battlefield he was on or beyond the horizon viewed west of Reno Hill. Donahues discussion of the Cedar Coulee proposition HERE is quite reasonable but my point in linking is the views at around one minute in, for a while. Edgerley could not see Indians coming towards him from Custer which can suggest his ride followed that route but there is something of the pig in poke with this because of Vincent Charley being abandoned, and survivors need to get to sleep at night. Some considerable research into this battle by one member elsewhere produced the overview below of some of the events. It tries very hard to understand and accomodate all things which is somewhat irrational, but as I said it was, and still is, tediously researched and far superior to Walter's canon.
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Post by johnson1941 on Sept 28, 2023 6:21:55 GMT -6
Agreed, and understood. Benteen will state what one CAN NOT see from Weir Hill (Custer battleground) vs what other said they could.
Benteen, RCOI "...I planted a guidon at the highest point that looked over that country. Some of the officers say that the battlefield was in sight, but I know positively that it was not, having gone over it two or three times since"
Camp confirmed: "from Weir Hill can see the Custodians house but not the monument nor any part of Custer battlefield"
I speculate this is more confusion in Weir HILL vs Weir PEAKS, as it seems so many have - including you and Donahue.
THAT is THE issue when such people as Donahue (see "In the Shadow of SSR") try to re-INVENT what other people MEANT - instead of trusting what they SAID, and if not trusting it - figuring out why 'YOU' might be the one mistaken.
Weir HILL is the perfect example. Herendeen RCOI "I claim that what is called Weir’s Hill is the highest point on the ridge in that vicinity."
Crystal clear. He also said it was 1/2 mile below Reno position. Nailed that, too.
Edgerly did NOT not say he could - he SAID he saw Indians PREVIOUSLY 'FROM THE HIGHEST POINT'. He SAID Weir on the bluff could, 'from the High Point'... Want to guess where the indians actually were at the time they WERE seen? Have at it!
Weir's HILL was referred to as that in 1879 - guess we know why!
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Post by herosrest on Sept 28, 2023 6:34:26 GMT -6
Any way, enough of this sniffing around the peaks and troughs. Who said this: “I also firmly and positively believe that we should have gone to the sound of the firing after Reno and Benteen united, and further I believe that if we had tried to join Custer at that time we would have shared his fate.”
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Post by johnson1941 on Sept 28, 2023 8:01:42 GMT -6
Dont know. WHo?
Here's one for you...
Reno, from his Official Report..
"We had heard firing in that direction and knew it could only be Custer. I moved to the summit of the highest bluff, but seeing and hearing nothing sent Captain Weir with his company to open communication with him. He soon sent word by Lieutenant Hare that he could go no farther"
Where was Reno once he moved to "the summit of the highest bluff"?
Now, after that is answered - correctly, we can digest info from Hare...which ties into many fun things we've been discussing...
'...Benteen & Reno, standing about 1/2 mile in rear of D Co, were discussing matters & Benteen suggested to Reno that they fall back as they were in a poor place for defense.' "Benteen remarked that indians could pass around them to the east and also by the river flat at the west and would soon be at their rear"
Hare had them at the highest point he called 5...which he located next to DeRudios highest point 7.
"While out on the advance with D, the Indians were thick over on Custer Ridge"
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Post by johnson1941 on Sept 28, 2023 8:46:25 GMT -6
If anyone needs clues...here ya go...
"Distance Weir Hill to 1st Edgerly Peak is 2500ft"
Q. How far down the river was the furthest point reached by any company under Major Reno? A. About half a mile below that highest point.
Hare said: "Benteen & Reno were 'standing about 1/2mile in rear of D Co.' discussing withdrawing them.
Q. State if you saw Major Reno at that point {edgerly Peak} giving orders. A. I don’t recollect seeing him there.
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Post by herosrest on Sept 28, 2023 9:23:18 GMT -6
There is a difficulty here with your knowlwdge. Reno did not send Weir to find Custer, or to recon an advance. When the remaining companies, and then Benteen, went after Weir, towards Custer; Reno tried to recall them but was ignored. Hare was certainly sent after Weir but Reno had meantime visited the bottom and returned. He really didn't have a good day. Besides that, though, his accounts of things changed slightly over time until he Inquiry where he told the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, which is incredibly difficult to do at the best of times. I don't really understand your timeline and suspect it is built upon Camp's work. If this is so, pop it up to help understand the confusions. Where is about what and it is the what which is studied. There used to be a timeline here, with many others variously researched in discussions. Let's see if I can find it. There ya go - link[/a
There is a difficulty inherent to time information from military and civilians who were there with watches, because no-one really knows/knew the 'Time of the Place' on which watches were operated. Camp had an idea that it was train time related to FAL and St. Paul. Ultimately that conclusion and worry about the origin of 7th Cavalry time, is pointless. Those who kept the time during the expedition kept the same time on their watches give or take a few minutes. It gets a little dafter with Indian time since mechanical time means that midday is an hour and some adrift of 12:00 when the sun is at mid-day. Then of course, the expeditions master clocks got screwed up when the EO's wagon fell off a bridge on 30th June in Davis Ck. near Medora, No one realised there was a problem with the chronometers until a few days later because of a white-out snow storm.
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Post by johnson1941 on Sept 28, 2023 9:53:40 GMT -6
Of course there is - that's why I rely on THE WITNESSES to tell me what happened - THEY WERE THERE after all. As we see constantly - People who rely too heavily on their own opinions are often wrong - TRUST NO ONE!! Very little opinon - much more fact-based backed-up by/relying on PRIMARY statements. Ah its so easy that way!! Hare "Reno sent {Hare} to go to Weir and tell Weir to connect with Custer." "{Hare} found Edgerly out ahead, but only held his advance position for about 10minutes."We understand Reno was not completely..honest in his report. But he did send Hare out to Weir…who had already started on his own. So - Where was Reno once he moved to "the summit of the highest bluff"? We all know the answer!! WOOP! IT IS WEIR HILL!!!I gave too many clues I know Which time-line do you refer? I havent gotten much into those at all...?? I do quote/refer times as given by witnesses though. Avoid many confusions that way, although they are usually estimates, and of course how much do YOU trust them? (rhetorical - Not much - I know). Usually as +/-XX to show estimate...same with distances, also often estimates. For instance, DeRudio said: "I saw General Custer 5 or 6 minutes before Major Reno retired from the timber" and "Four or five minutes before Major Reno retreated" AND "six or seven minutes after {DeR} got to the timber he saw custer"Martin said: "Custer halted command on the high ridge about 10 minutes and officers looked at village through glasses."Girard said he saw Custer command: "Between ten and fifteen minutes, I should think, before, prior to Major Reno leaving the timber"Varnum: "saw them about the time Maj Reno command dismounted in the bottom". So that would correspond TIMING wise with his locating them in Cedar, but THAT LOCATION is not what he testified to. Dont matter - really - he marked them IN Ceda...we KNOW where he marked them on Graham's map.
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Post by herosrest on Sept 28, 2023 11:04:38 GMT -6
So Martin was either mistaken about seeing Reno fighting in the valley after having ridden to MTC WITH Custer, and back to Benteen's ' G' The high hill which is not Weir's Hill, or your grasp of events hasn't quite turned to jelly. Turning to jelly is good. Exceedingly good because it can then be nailed to smooth walls. It takes 10 minuyes to go at a reasonable pace. A military unit said to be travelling fast tend to go fast, so do messengers with urgent orders. Martin put it at 15 minutes.
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Post by johnson1941 on Sept 28, 2023 11:12:39 GMT -6
Sure ok!
Herendeen "I claim that what is called Weir’s Hill is the highest point on the ridge in that vicinity".
Sure. but its fine! We can call it anything you like! Maybe - "HR nemesis"?
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Post by herosrest on Sept 28, 2023 11:21:49 GMT -6
On a map of the bluffs and battlefield, i'm pointing at MTC about 6-800 yards from the river. Custer was there.
Now my finger has moved to Garryowen at the end of the riverloop. DeRudio was around here somewhere on the skirmishline.
Later, DeRudio was under cover in timber near the origin of the retreat to cross the river and saw Custer on the bluffs.
Explain how Custer backtracked to be seen by DeRudio.
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Post by johnson1941 on Sept 28, 2023 11:34:59 GMT -6
Simple - he didn't. After being spotted, he went down cedar...the coulee running north, entered MTC, & moved to your finger.
Girard saw them. Varnum saw them. DeRudio saw him. Newell saw them. Martin was there.
Q. You know where General Custer was found with his men afterwards? A. Yes, sir. Q. I want you to take into consideration the time that elapsed after Major Reno got to the place where he halted and formed the skirmish line, and the engagement following it, and state where General Custer must have been at the time Major Reno left the timber with his command. A. He must have been about half way from the starting point and where he had his fight. Q. Here is the point “A” showing the crossing of Major Reno in the first instance - how do you mean, half way to the place he made his fight? A. I judge that at the time Major Reno left the timber, General Custer was about opposite where we were. Q. how near was General Custer to his battlefield when Major Reno left the timber with his command?
A. It would be just a guess, depending on how fast he was traveling. He ought to have been beyond Major Reno’s position, on the hill, about half a mile.
psst - 1/2 mile below Reno's Position? Ring a bell? *To that highest point, Weir’s Hill, probably half a mile down.
We're done with this guy...NEXT!!!
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Post by herosrest on Sept 28, 2023 12:01:33 GMT -6
I'm working back through the many topics on this and you might be right about timing which turns things into treacle but thats OK. I'll get back on it. It's news report stuff rather than testimony.
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Post by herosrest on Sept 28, 2023 12:45:01 GMT -6
No, it's a quack, quack, quacker. Per DeRudio the sighting is 5-6 minutes before the retreat and at long range which is what 1,000 yards and more are. So, Reno halts, deploys, fights withdraws and routs with DeRudio seeing Custer 5 mins before Reno exits his horse holders timber. Now, Reno's fight was brief but I had never found the means to completely pin that down. Voila. The maximum duration is from Varnum sighting the grey horse troop, which one can only assume advanced rapidly to MTC wher Custer sent Martin back; and Martin meeting Benteen and travelling back to see Reno in retreat. I did the calcs on that way back for different speeds and can dig them out. Actually, i'll do 'em again. But no, there has to be an explanation which rationalises Martin seeing Reno's fight and the five companies being in MTC.
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Post by herosrest on Sept 28, 2023 12:59:09 GMT -6
What's the distance from your location for Varnum's sighting of the grey horse troops to the one on Graham's map, please? 3.6 miles back to Custer's Last look at Benteen's 'G'. Cedar adds another mile. SSR to WP ⅝ mile. 3.6 to 4.2 miles. Speed........ I shall refer to how to kill your horse rates of advance. A fit youngster covers that in around an hour. A horse doing 7.2 makes it 30 minutes out and back to WP, MTC, CLL. 11mph gets interesting. Of course Cooke could have taken long time getting the message scripted but he didn't - he dashed it off. Martin would have dashed it too, 'cos........ that was the mission. Find Benteen and tell him............ to wait for the crops to come in. 20 minutes. At 14mph is 15.5 minutes. Which is what Martin stated he did. Need some corroboration. Distance 3.6 to 4.2 miles........... ah.... the magic word. Miles. Nelson A. Miles did that ride to MTC in 1878 and carried on from MTC to Custer's Hill. Of course the horse could have been a slow one but he was a trumpeter! Hmmm.... Do mount your trumpeters on condemned horses, brilliant! So, Martin saw Reno fighting 15 minutes after Varnum sighted the Grey horse troop. Martin was at Custer's Last Lookout when he saw Reno fighting and then continued to meet Benteen at the foot of the bluffs in Reno Ck. Mybe another 1.4 miles and then back that distance to Reno Hill. 2.8 miles by Benteen at 5mph or so...... 30 minutes. 45 minutes. So, how long to travel in accelerating rout along the retreat trail to Reno Hill, via 12 feet river banks into a flowing river with only a single, single horse exit at opposite bank? That move could have accelerated to 30+ mph for those that made it. 1.1 miles to the river and 1,5 miles total although nothing and no-one was doing 30 up the bluffs and most of them dismounted to walk up. Upto 10 minutes climbing the bluffs. Two minutes getting to the river. Looking at 30 minutes max in the valley fight phases. Of course, once Benteen commited from Reno Ck. he was at military speed. So I need to look at that. H company men.... I have around ten accounts to review. Back soon.
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Post by johnson1941 on Sept 28, 2023 13:58:14 GMT -6
Yes I know - the timing is terrible to resolve (wagner was onto something)...or maybe it isn't. As you’re aware - in trying to work on this issue, I saw again that Martin has several versions* - in 1 he saw custer on the flats while he was still on his way back up (cutting across high ground) to the lookout In another - he saw Custer thing from the lookout. His timing estimates at the RCOI blow. As for DeRudio…it is my opinion that his sighting description re:location was VERY specific and VERY correct - that location is just as he describes it. If there is an issue, as i have said in the past, it would be with his timing. I think it eerily strange that herendeen nailed within 5mins custer’s location EXACTLY where DeRudio placed him. * A) "I did not follow Dry Creek all way back to coulee running north and south but cut across the high ground. When I got up on the elevation I looked behind and saw Custer's command over on the flat and Indians over in the village riding toward the river and waving buffalo hides. The battalion appeared at this time to be falling back from the river. This is the last I saw of the 5 companies alive and it was only a hasty glance. I kept on up the north and south coulee..."
B)"When Martin got to top of ridge he looked down in village and saw Indians charging like a swarm of bees toward the ford waving buffalo hides. At the same time he saw Custer retreating up the open country in the direction of the battlefield."Know what he doesn't say in these versions? Seeing Reno!!! UGH!! (he does hear firing off to the right) And this nugget..." When started back with message had not seen village from this coulee." UGH!!! WHere did he get sent back?! C) RCOI "A. After I started from General Custer to go back I traveled 5 or 600 yards, perhaps 3/4 of a mile. I got on the same ridge where General Custer saw the village the first time. On going back over that ridge I looked down into the bottom, and I saw Major Reno’s battalion was engaged."Should we guess just what he meant by "engaged" fedora.dlib.indiana.edu/fedora/get/iudl:2098861/OVERVIEW
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