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Post by johnson1941 on Sept 28, 2023 14:26:53 GMT -6
At the RCOI he stated "Assuming that the position of Major Reno’s command on the hill is correct it was probably a quarter of a mile below that". He backed that up with "a little farther down than where we struck the bluffs we came up on them and not quite so far down as the figure “2” in pencil on the map."
Using the base 1891 USGS, vs Graham spot, it scaled to about 1.25mile from 'Reno Intrenchment'.
He added: Q.How long after you saw the Gray Horse Company as you have stated till Major Reno retreated from the timber? A. It must have been about half an hour.
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Post by herosrest on Sept 28, 2023 14:53:03 GMT -6
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Post by johnson1941 on Sept 28, 2023 14:54:48 GMT -6
LOL! AND we are good at maths!!!
Hey that video reminds me...
"The line marked I indicates a coolie in which in June water runs, but later in the year is perfectly dry"
This from Mrs Spotted Horn Bull, re: her simple sketch in Custer Myth- pretty sure she is talking "Dry Creek"/ MTC.
Always curious about that, and took me like 6 months to find it again.
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Post by herosrest on Sept 28, 2023 15:55:09 GMT -6
She was a Seanchaí. You accept Martin or you don't. From the heights on his march to Benteen, he saw nothing in MTC which is shielded from view. The flats are across towards Deep Coulee (North Medicine Tail) which mitigates into Curtis's investigation. Then there is the two routes of march across to Deep Coulee and beyond which, incidently, were not on Maguires earliest sketch map, or Benteen's, or anyone's as far as I know, except Freeman of 7th Infantry. I was reading a private report by Maguire which states what an early newspaper sketch map showed in the NY Herald. The first stand was probably made by Lieuts Calhoun and Crittenden on the hill marked D to protect the troops passing along the ravine at its foot. The men and their empty cartridge shells were found in a semi-circle around the crest. Calhoun and Crittenden were killed here. What we have and know today does not reflect the situation outlined by Maguire and that would be because the remains were removed by Lt. Roe in 1881 when erecting the monument and placing the family marker for Crittenden, which is often to always forgotten. That terrain was properly and thoroughly cleared abd tidied. The only indications of a stubborn fight there are the early newspaper map, Maguire's very little Known letter of July 2, 1876, and the comments from those who viewed the scene or undertook burials. The map crudely indicates a deployment on the military crest facing the river down Deep Coule and towards Blummers and NC. Any way, what we have from the sources puts troop considerably toward Deep Coulee by the time Martin viewed Reno's fight from 'G', which is perfectly reasonable. It is all standard fare but worth going over again as a framework to examine what are a tun of slippery tales. Regards . Circa 1918 - Calhoun Hill markers
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Post by johnson1941 on Sept 28, 2023 18:17:26 GMT -6
Cheers - keep at it!
I'll try digging up some of those Camp battleground measurements...he was good at that! Ill add em as I find em...
Where Benteen Watered Horses 77747 91.3 miles Lone tepee..............................78200 92. 5 miles Ford where Reno crossed......... 79471 95.7 miles Reno Hill................. 80130 97. 5 miles Monument on CRidge.............. 82200 102. 8 miles
Follow South Branch coulee on Custer's Trail and down Medicine Tail coulee until I come in sight of lower part of village determine point where Custer halted command and sent Martin back. 3431 feet from bend and 6184 feet from river.
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Post by herosrest on Sept 28, 2023 19:55:37 GMT -6
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Post by herosrest on Sept 29, 2023 8:53:30 GMT -6
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Post by johnson1941 on Sept 29, 2023 9:45:12 GMT -6
Bet if he backed up a few 100 yards you'd get your DF Barry skirmish line(s).
Reading Gall again (& Godfrey) in Custer myth talking about them. Good stuff easier to understand now - thanks for covering that stuff!
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Post by herosrest on Sept 29, 2023 11:25:52 GMT -6
Benteen galloped up the bluffs onto Reno Hill, as one might expect. There are some versions of it which have Weir arriving in advance of Benteen but that just shaves seconds. Benteen doing a gallop is a bit more productive with a thundering 1.5 miles to Reno's succour. (4:30)
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Post by herosrest on Sept 29, 2023 11:32:10 GMT -6
There's another of Nightengale's videos HERE. I accept that DeRudio sighted people on those bluffs but there is no way ever, that he positively identified Custer of Cooke. That was his imagination. You can see figures on the bluff but the not well enough to properly identify.
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Post by johnson1941 on Sept 29, 2023 11:48:00 GMT -6
Buckskin pants. Blue SHirts. Huge beard. AH well..they were exactly there and we know that, as per so many others startin with Martin...so I am good with it. Even if it was just a GREAT guess at who he saw. Turns out he was right!
LOL - maybe he recognized his field glasses!
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Post by herosrest on Sept 29, 2023 12:09:31 GMT -6
Page 106 Interview with Thomas F. O'Neill1
Tom O'Neill's story given to me personally on October 12 [probably 1919] in Washington D.C. O'Neill says Custer came within 300 or 400 yards of river before he turned up to the right. He remembers the ford where Reno crossed as at a high bank. The trail split and went around a little rise of ground on which some of the Rees were sitting holding a council and discussing the numbers of the Sioux. One of these was picking up handfuls of grass and dropping it and pointing to the Sioux, who could be seen down and across the river, indicating that the Sioux were as thick as the grass. He [O'Neill] went to left of this knoll and down to the river through a dry ravine. On other side of river there were timber and fallen logs and took some time to get through. When about half way down to where skirmish line was formed he saw Custer and his whole command on the bluffs across the river, over to the east, at a point which he would think was about where Reno afterward fortified, or perhaps a little south of this. Custer's command were then going at a trot.
1. Walter Camp field notes, folder 83, BYU Library. Thomas F. O'Neill, born in Dublin, Ireland, was a private in Company G. He enlisted for the second time on January 17, 1872. He was cook for Lieutenant Donald McIntosh on the Sioux campaign until June 25. He retired as a first sergeant and died on March 23, 1914. His account is also in The Pacific Monthly, July 1908, p. 109. A copy of a three-page letter from Sergeant Thomas O'Neill to Brigadier General E. S. Godfrey with his account of the fight is in the Manuscript Room, New York Public Library.
We grapple a porcelain knot!
A number of men with Reno saw the same, and at least two Officer's on 27th June, told that Custer had gone downriver - see McClernand.
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Post by johnson1941 on Sept 29, 2023 12:20:44 GMT -6
Yep - now that is pretty darn early (time-wise)! What's also interesting is if they were indeed south of Reno Hill, that puts them hitting the bluffs a little farther upstream than Camp (Martin, Knipe & Curley) had them {"about 500' N of reno corral", '3-500' N of RH' and "Knipe showed me where Custer struck across from Benteen Creek and came out at bluff. He struck edge of bluffs few hundred feet north of where Reno's afterward corraled"} Far enough south on the bluff would be now in Curtis territory! Point 2 anyone?!? {which is actually extremely low in elev vs the highest point north of Reno - its a joke on Curtis map} Porcelain indeed!!!
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Post by herosrest on Sept 29, 2023 12:26:03 GMT -6
Interview with John Martin, October 24, 1908 page 100
Martin says Custer's trail passed along where Reno retreated to. Then Custer halted command on the high ridge about 10 minutes, and officers looked at village through glasses. Custer now made a speech to his men saying, "We will go down and make a crossing and capture the village." The whole command then pulled off their hats and cheered. And the consensus of opinion seemed to be among the officers that if this could be done the Indians would have to surrender when they would return, in order not to fire upon their women and children. Then command "Attention" "Fours right" "Column right" "March'' was given and command went forward down off the hill and then "Column left" and whole command passed down ravine toward dry creek.4 Martin thinks he continued about 1/2 mile farther when Cooke halted and wrote message to Benteen and gave to Martin. This is the confusion which has launched a thousand Cedar Coulees - totally misunderstood - another Big Beaver affair)
3. Custer never left his command to ride to the high point to wave his hat, as is sometimes reported. When Custer was on the high point his whole command was there with him, sitting on their horses. As soon as the command left this high point everybody passed out of sight from Reno's position and went down the hollow toward Dry Creek. I do not remember seeing Mitch Bouyer or the Crow scouts at this time. They might have been somewhere in the vicinity and I did not see them.
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Post by johnson1941 on Sept 29, 2023 12:28:48 GMT -6
Well surely this didn't help...
"Inq. John Martin. Did Custer follow the bottom South Coulee all the way and make turn into Medicine Tail or cut across the hill and save some of the distance. He Dog seemed to think Custer cut across the hill.
No Custer followed coulee all the way."
Nor this...
Custer first halted on Weir's hill and took a look at village (from this point he could see only about 1/3 of it - Hunk and Blackfoot villages - W.M. C.) Here he turned column to the right and went down coulee to Dry Creek and turned to left and followed Dry Creek straight for village.
Or this: “I did not follow Dry Creek all way back to coulee running north and south but cut across the high ground”
Nor this: “I kept on up the north and south coulee and soon met a mounted man whom I recognized as one of "C" troop,”
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