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Post by fred on Sept 23, 2015 8:23:01 GMT -6
You cannot go by titles. Look at Dan Marino. Then look at Marino vs. Eli Manning. I like Eli, but he's no Marino.
Walsh should be included in the best, but again, this "rating" business is way too subjective and never seems to take into consideration the eras these guys played in. Johnny Unitas was the greatest QB of his era, and arguably the greatest ever. I cannot, however, say that any more because of guys like Joe Montana and Tom Brady.
Look at Shula... what did he win? Two Super Bowls with the Dolphins? Then what? What you need to look at is how competitive he was. Shall could never put together another champion because he could never draft high enough to get some of those higher quality players. Yet almost every year he coached, you needed to look at his teams as a possible SB champion. That is a great coach!! Belichick is a master at the no-name signings: who are these guys?!! So they are different types, both absolute masters at knowing the game... remember how everyone was stunned years ago when, in a tight game, Shula told Marino or whoever to take the safety? Yet he preferred that little ploy to the alternatives... and he probably won that game because of it; similar to Belichick not calling that time-out in the last Super Bowl.
So my advice is to enjoy the great ones within the eras they play and while you may dislike Bill "Benteen" Belichick because of his personality, enjoy his greatness as a coach... for he is just that.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by edavids on Sept 23, 2015 12:34:45 GMT -6
You cannot go by titles. Look at Dan Marino. Then look at Marino vs. Eli Manning. I like Eli, but he's no Marino. Walsh should be included in the best, but again, this "rating" business is way too subjective and never seems to take into consideration the eras these guys played in. Johnny Unitas was the greatest QB of his era, and arguably the greatest ever. I cannot, however, say that any more because of guys like Joe Montana and Tom Brady. Look at Shula... what did he win? Two Super Bowls with the Dolphins? Then what? What you need to look at is how competitive he was. Shall could never put together another champion because he could never draft high enough to get some of those higher quality players. Yet almost every year he coached, you needed to look at his teams as a possible SB champion. That is a great coach!! Belichick is a master at the no-name signings: who are these guys?!! So they are different types, both absolute masters at knowing the game... remember how everyone was stunned years ago when, in a tight game, Shula told Marino or whoever to take the safety? Yet he preferred that little ploy to the alternatives... and he probably won that game because of it; similar to Belichick not calling that time-out in the last Super Bowl. So my advice is to enjoy the great ones within the eras they play and while you may dislike Bill "Benteen" Belichick because of his personality, enjoy his greatness as a coach... for he is just that. Best wishes, Fred. No argument on Belichick's excellence. Disagree somewhat about championshops mattering though. Give me Lombardi as coach and Starr my QB. I believe the latter is greatest quarterback I ever saw. Note "quarterback" not "passer".
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Post by tubman13 on Sept 23, 2015 14:13:01 GMT -6
edavids, I grew up in Baltimore, Unitas may be my pick due to that, first saw him play in 1957. If you take Unitas and Bart Starr put them together you get Montana. Some of the most exciting play ever was given us by Elway and Favre. Clearly the rules and the game have changed, so has the "mindset!" The last bit is for Will and Fred. Custer's last day reminds me of a picture of Y.A. Tittle on the ground after a certain big hit. assets.sbnation.com/assets/8315/Y.A_Tittle_2_medium.jpgRegards, Tom
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Post by Beth on Sept 23, 2015 14:27:37 GMT -6
Doesn't anyone follow baseball anymore?
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Post by dave on Sept 23, 2015 14:37:35 GMT -6
Beth Baseball isn't violent (violate) enough for these boards, except me and Ferdinand the Bull and me. Benteen was a baseball freak and was ahead of his time. Regards Dave
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Post by Beth on Sept 23, 2015 15:02:17 GMT -6
Beth Baseball isn't violent (violate) enough for these boards, except me and Ferdinand the Bull and me. Benteen was a baseball freak and was ahead of his time. Regards Dave Not just you. Hubby is a die hard Cards fan while I am a Cubs fan. Usually this late in the season I can freely switch my loyalties and cheer for the Cards. Unfortunately we live in a land that thinks the only bb team is the Texas Rangers and the MBL baseball package is way too pricey so we have to follow games online. Either way nothing beat sitting in the seat in a ballpark with perhaps a cool drink in one hand and an overpriced hotdog in the other. I know Benteen was a baseball freak. He also had a very good time in his company. I know that this link has been posted before Benteen Baseball Card and another about early baseball in Bismark
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Post by wild on Sept 23, 2015 15:59:16 GMT -6
Tom Richard, while I do not agree with the above, I understand it. Perception becomes reality, but I see no hero's or goats Reno vs Benteen. I see two men doing the best they could to salvage a very difficult situation. Far from perfect in execution, both. They played the cards dealt them, unfortunately GAC slipped more than a few jokers in the deck. Neither knew what they didn't know. If it was a commercial venture then medals all round ,brilliant salvage job .But it was not a civilian venture it was military and they march to a different drum beat . Am I being unfair when I say most here judge it as a one off operation ? A battle in isolation, an ad hoc affair where the officers did their individual best? forgetting that they were part of the long gray line , a culture stretching back to the fondation of the State.With an ethos and an oath bound obligation for all time and all situations not to be compromised by the first difficult situation they faced. Loyalty is for difficult situations . The mission was not saving Custer but it became saving the honour of the military. When the pressure came on Reno broke, well, like a soldier but there was no pressure on Benteen he just broke. It is better that a battle be lost than the spirit of the regiment/corps be compromised . Best Wishes Richard
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Post by tubman13 on Sept 23, 2015 17:02:43 GMT -6
Richard,
When do you perceive, Benteen breaking? Or better yet what was the first step in that progression of breaking? As you may know I have followed many of your posts on both boards, while we differ on this you generally have a basis for what you contend. The first fault I see with Benteen, was when he did not dress down Weir after his stunt at the waterhole(Morass). I do not see that as breaking, however.
Regards, Tom
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Post by edavids on Sept 23, 2015 17:49:43 GMT -6
Beth Baseball isn't violent (violate) enough for these boards, except me and Ferdinand the Bull and me. Benteen was a baseball freak and was ahead of his time. Regards Dave Not just you. Hubby is a die hard Cards fan while I am a Cubs fan. Usually this late in the season I can freely switch my loyalties and cheer for the Cards. Unfortunately we live in a land that thinks the only bb team is the Texas Rangers and the MBL baseball package is way too pricey so we have to follow games online. Either way nothing beat sitting in the seat in a ballpark with perhaps a cool drink in one hand and an overpriced hotdog in the other. I know Benteen was a baseball freak. He also had a very good time in his company. I know that this link has been posted before Benteen Baseball Card and another about early baseball in [a href="http://ndbaseball.weebly.com/uploads/2/1/1/9 /21192418/many_exciting_chases.pdf"]Bismark [/a] [/quote][bra Which is a great segue into a moment of silence for the great Yogi Berra. Go Yankees!!
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Post by edavids on Sept 23, 2015 17:58:19 GMT -6
edavids, I grew up in Baltimore, Unitas may be my pick due to that, first saw him play in 1957. If you take Unitas and Bart Starr put them together you get Montana. Some of the most exciting play ever was given us by Elway and Favre. Clearly the rules and the game have changed, so has the "mindset!" The last bit is for Will and Fred. Custer's last day reminds me of a picture of Y.A. Tittle on the ground after a certain big hit. assets.sbnation.com/assets/8315/Y.A_Tittle_2_medium.jpgRegards, Tom Well put. This is 100% subjective so I will stay with the guy who went 9-1 in post season. Unitas was the guy we loved to hate. God forbid he was down 6 points at the 2 minute warning and 75 yards to go. The other team guaranteed to lose by 1 Good analogy on Tittle. My thought is Lawrence Taylor breaking Joe Theisman's leg on the play that made us all sick to our stomachs. I now promise to keep the rest of my comments focused on LBH
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Post by edavids on Sept 23, 2015 18:24:31 GMT -6
Tom Richard, while I do not agree with the above, I understand it. Perception becomes reality, but I see no hero's or goats Reno vs Benteen. I see two men doing the best they could to salvage a very difficult situation. Far from perfect in execution, both. They played the cards dealt them, unfortunately GAC slipped more than a few jokers in the deck. Neither knew what they didn't know.If it was a commercial venture then medals all round ,brilliant salvage job .But it was not a civilian venture it was military and they march to a different drum beat . Am I being unfair when I say most here judge it as a one off operation ? A battle in isolation, an ad hoc affair where the officers did their individual best? forgetting that they were part of the long gray line , a culture stretching back to the fondation of the State.With an ethos and an oath bound obligation for all time and all situations not to be compromised by the first difficult situation they faced. Loyalty is for difficult situations . The mission was not saving Custer but it became saving the honour of the military. When the pressure came on Reno broke, well, like a soldier but there was no pressure on Benteen he just broke. It is better that a battle be lost than the spirit of the regiment/corps be compromised . Best Wishes Richard Hello Wild: we diverge greatly on opinions here. I do not have a military background but, per AZ Ranger/Benteeneast the military's goal is to win. If this is not possible make the best decision available, in this case rally the troops, ensure survival and live to fight another day. I agree that, in hindsight, the sojourn to Weir Point was a waste of energy and cost the combined battalions a man. Who to blame? Who cares!? Custer got himself caught flat footed and annihilated. Benteen and Reno mades a wasted "college try" effort but lived to fight another day in a campalgn that proved successful within a year or so. Should the Brits have thumbed their noses at the rescue ships in Dunquerque Harbor and fought the Germans to the last man because the ultimate mission was to defeat Germany? Different situations entirely but one evacuation is revered while the hilltop situation is often reviled. Best, David
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Post by dave on Sept 23, 2015 20:32:47 GMT -6
Tom My folks moved to Maryland in 1970 so I saw the Birds at Old Memorial Stadium and often my wife and I ate at the Golden Arm restaurant. Each time we went we were greeted by the Great Man himself, Mr. Unitas. The food was good but the stories he told were even better. What a great man and Hall of Famer he was. Baseball the Braves and the Orioles are my favorites with the Braves at the top. Regards Dave PS Beth loved the links.
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Post by wild on Sept 24, 2015 2:44:06 GMT -6
Hi Tom
When do you perceive, Benteen breaking? Or better yet what was the first step in that progression of breaking? As you may know I have followed many of your posts on both boards, while we differ on this you generally have a basis for what you contend. The first fault I see with Benteen, was when he did not dress down Weir after his stunt at the waterhole(Morass). I do not see that as breaking, however. Custer's leadership was divisive . He favoured some officers over others . He was too close to his favoured subordinates . There was a the offical military pecking order and there was the Custer clan pecking order .For example Weir would never have taken off on his own hook if he had not been one of the clan . Benteen has a situation where the senior officer [Reno] is in a state of shock and his [Benteen's ] 2i/c [ clan member]decides to depart the scene. Halting was a mistake but the Weir situation was Benteen's breaking point . Rather than taking a firm hold of the situation ,showing some leadership he takes the line of least resistance and goes missing metaphorically speaking . I'm not familiar with the waterhole incident but it goes to show that favoured officers took more than an inch. I have a fascination with aircrash investigation which continually makes the point that it is never just one fault which brings an aircraft down but an accumulation of errors which when occuring in a particular sequence spells disaster. The LBH is the military equivalent. Maybe it can be traced back to the Elliot incident ? who's to know. The above is just my opinion ;these things cannot be measured but Benteen was the man in the breech who just let things happen. Always a pleasure Richard
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Post by Beth on Sept 24, 2015 4:10:55 GMT -6
Hi Tom When do you perceive, Benteen breaking? Or better yet what was the first step in that progression of breaking? As you may know I have followed many of your posts on both boards, while we differ on this you generally have a basis for what you contend. The first fault I see with Benteen, was when he did not dress down Weir after his stunt at the waterhole(Morass). I do not see that as breaking, however.Custer's leadership was divisive . He favoured some officers over others . He was too close to his favoured subordinates . There was a the offical military pecking order and there was the Custer clan pecking order .For example Weir would never have taken off on his own hook if he had not been one of the clan . Benteen has a situation where the senior officer [Reno] is in a state of shock and his [Benteen's ] 2i/c [ clan member]decides to depart the scene. Halting was a mistake but the Weir situation was Benteen's breaking point . Rather than taking a firm hold of the situation ,showing some leadership he takes the line of least resistance and goes missing metaphorically speaking . I'm not familiar with the waterhole incident but it goes to show that favoured officers took more than an inch. I have a fascination with aircrash investigation which continually makes the point that it is never just one fault which brings an aircraft down but an accumulation of errors which when occuring in a particular sequence spells disaster. The LBH is the military equivalent. Maybe it can be traced back to the Elliot incident ? who's to know. The above is just my opinion ;these things cannot be measured but Benteen was the man in the breech who just let things happen. Always a pleasure Richard Personally I tend to wonder if Weir had a warm buzz on that day starting from the first sip of his canteen and then spent the day pouting like the boy who was selected for the wrong side on the football team. His behaviour at both Reno Hill and the watering hole could have been more about he was afraid that he was going to miss all of the fun and then be the butt of the rest of the 'clan's jokes' than a concern for Custer's welfare. I think when he got to Weir point that there was a good chance when he saw all the NA coming his way that that point seemed like an awfully lonely place to be and he couldn't get back to Reno Hill fast enough. Once he was back at Reno Hill, Weir realized that he had fallen in everyone's regard because of the Vincent Charley and he never recovered. I personally kind of mentally see Tom Weir as like a half trained puppy in the field, he keeps running around wanting to do the right thing but the other dogs and the trainer keep trying to get it back in line. However every time the trainer is distracted that pup wanders off again. Beth--who admits to having strange mental images of people.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Sept 24, 2015 5:44:24 GMT -6
Richard
As long as I have known you on these boards going back to the Against All Odds board you have held the same opinion on Benteen. I have never understood it so it must be something from your side of the pond. Just my observation.
Steve
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