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Post by Beth on Sept 24, 2015 18:28:57 GMT -6
Love your post on Weir, Beth. Strictly conjecture as I do not believe Weir was responsible for any post battle reports, Weir would see the aftermath of Reno's debacle in the valley and likely made aware that there were lots of N/A's and they were not skedaddling. We will never know for sure what he saw from Weir point but my guess is that he recognized a disaster in progress. Best, David I agree, we can never know. Weir would have learned about Reno's debacle but did Reno or anyone on Reno Hill at that moment know the true breadth and width of the village at that time? I just find so many times people give Weir what must be miraculous powers by being anxious for Custer's safety at the morass even before there was any reason for Weir to have had knowledge that contact was made. It's so easy to slip in what we know about events and impose them on what was actually known at any given moment in Montana on that day.
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Post by edavids on Sept 24, 2015 19:09:32 GMT -6
Hi again Beth:
Not necessarily the same reason for each of his impatient moves. I believe Weir was part of the Custer Clan yet got sent off to the hinterlands with Benteen. First time wanted to get to the action? Second time the realization that there was just no fun to be had but destruction of the regiment was a possibility?
I get a sense of annoyance with move #1 and desperation with move #2. Again, conjecture based on no knowable facts.
Best,
David
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Post by Beth on Sept 24, 2015 19:31:14 GMT -6
Hi again Beth: Not necessarily the same reason for each of his impatient moves. I believe Weir was part of the Custer Clan yet got sent off to the hinterlands with Benteen. First time wanted to get to the action? Second time the realization that there was not just no fun to be had but destruction of the regiment was a possibility? I get a sense of annoyance with move #1 and desperation with move #2. Again, conjecture based on no knowable facts. Best, David I agree--conjecture based on no knowable fact, for all we know there might have been another factor that has been lost in time. Weir saddens me, especially in his end. I can't imagine being so lost in one's inner demons as he apparently was at the end. Parts of me wants to see him as optimistically or perhaps a bit petulantly, wanting to join the party and being in a hurry to get there but the reality is I also believe that of all the canteens that had whisky in it that day, Weir's was one and it probably affected his mood as the day progressed.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Sept 25, 2015 7:59:32 GMT -6
Hi AZ As long as I have known you on these boards going back to the Against All Odds board you have held the same opinion on Benteen. I have never understood it so it must be something from your side of the pond. Just my observation.Logic does not change by crossing over an ocean . And no ,I did not always hold this view . I was of much the same view as your good self on Bemteen but then as I got to learn more of the detail I changed my view, helped not a little by the fact that it got our late lamented friend foaming at the mouth. What surprises me is that you and Dan being Marines hold the opinions you do, bearing in mind that the Marines did not even allow you to consider your selves as individuals......This marine etc . Benteen by halting stopped the forward momentum and allowed his troops to mingle with defeated dispirited troops and officers .Morale must have dropped like a lead balloon . He reported his command to a shocked officer who was not fit to command at that juncture . And rather than support him in fact undermined him. Of course the people we would like to hear from on this are our resident officers .They remain silent ? Well one won't debate and the other in my opinion will not take a stand on it because it might appear to give succour to certain clowns . Best Regards Richard Logic has nothing to do with US officers making the best available decision even if that means they disregard an order. You keep stating that Benteen halted his forward movement and therefore you are ignoring the Martin note requiring bring packs. Benteen moved forward as the packs arrived to his location. The Indians play a more important role in Benteen and Reno not moving forward toward the horse herd and village. They can thank Custer for selecting two NOGO terrain features to be placed between them and completion of the mission. Regards Steve
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Post by AZ Ranger on Sept 25, 2015 8:14:33 GMT -6
Richard, I was only an E-7, had one of my subordinates, wandered off ahead of the rest of the team, for whatever reason, I would have ripped him a new on. I would have done this in front of the whole team. He would have been put in his place or removed of any responsibility. There is a time to ignore a minor infraction and maybe take the discussion behind closed doors, this was not one of them. If I was hunting with Dave, on his hunting trip I would apply a shock collar on a high setting. I also would train my dogs better than he, in the first place. Had I been in the jungle in the 60's, Weir would have walked point(alone) or brought up the rear. So we agree that Benteen made a mistake here. Breaking, not so much breaking, as he was too lenient, which may have led to the later antics. Regards, Tom I would agree if Weir had ordered his company to move out. Taking his orderly alone appears to me an opportunity to get a view from Weir and I can't believe that Reno had not sent someone there. On horseback its not that far in regards to time. If Weir wasn't assigned a task to check for wounded on the bluffs, gather up horses, distribute ammunition, take care of wounded, then setting up an observation point on Weir Point was a better use of his time. Weir never places himself personally where the Indians are between himself and Benteen. Regards Steve
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Post by AZ Ranger on Sept 25, 2015 8:16:44 GMT -6
Changing subjects on what Reno could have done better. Did Reno know that Hodgson was dead and that there were no wounded troopers between the bluffs and the river?
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by AZ Ranger on Sept 25, 2015 8:23:45 GMT -6
believe perhaps the thought that Custer couldn't handle anything he met didn't even enter anyone's mind until much later in the day and into the night. In my thinking the only reason Weir was so anxious to get to Custer is because he thought that was 'the place to be' and he wasn't part of it. Take a look at his impatience at the morass--that was before Benteen had received Cooke's message when there wasn't even any information that they had found the village yet Weir was acting the same way.
Beth
I think that is the lingering thought that those there that survived had to live with along the what if they had recognized the true situation. Would they do something different. Benteen testified that given the same circumstance he would have done it the same way.
Even an automobile accident makes you think what if I left 5 minutes earlier or later but at the time you don't know that you would be in the accident.
Regards
Steve
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Post by AZ Ranger on Sept 25, 2015 8:46:10 GMT -6
Hi Colt 45 First off my apologies I thought we had just two officers posting here. And thanks for your challenging reply. Like Steve, I don't understand your opinion of Benteen.Ok bottom line........... When Benteen halted his battalion that was the end of all offensive action.The battle was over . This was not his call to make and comes nowhere near using his best judgement to further his COs intent. The argument that he consoladated and restored the defeated Reno battalion does not stand up . He did not inform the packs of the situation even though two messengers reached him .He did not send for the ammo . Allowing his 2i/c to depart the scene with a company in tow is beyond belief what ever standards you apply . His departing the scene himself without informing Reno and without orders not only is derliction of duty but indicates that far from restoring Reno's battalion he did precisely nothing other than add to the shambles . As he is following that order, he sees friendlies engaged heavily with the enemy, and he also sees the good guys are losing badly. He decides to go to their location as that is where he will be neededThe deploynent of detachments is the CO's call . In military terms he is not needed by Reno because Reno is out of the battle .It is the mission which needs him. I know if I had been Benteen, rolling up on the scene with the same lack of knowledge of the overall situation, I would have stayed and assisted in organizing the unit, taking care of wounded, getting the unit organized to either move out to fight or to defend in place if the hostile situation required itBenteen dismissed Kanipe a sergeant coming from the Custer's command without as much as a "how's it going up there ? what happening? Speaks volumns of the man's positivity. And by army regulations, protocol, whatever, Major Reno was automatically in charge and his orders would have to be obeyed unless he was found incapable.Reno did not countermand Benteen;s orders . The orders of the officer in overall command are not conditional on chance meetings with a local senior officer. Units could never transit a battle field if there was an automatic protocol. That is not to say he performed brilliantly (he didn't), but I think he did a rather decent job given the bag of crap he found himself holdingHe was lucky Custer was dead ,he was lucky the army did not want to know and he was lucky Reno was compromised by his defeat and was in no position be bring charges. And when he did decide to go to work he did show leadership qualities . Cheers Well you got an U.S. officer to respond. Again you claim Benteen halted and disregard the location of the packs that he was to bring. He moved out when they reached his location. Reno was not just a senior officer he was second in command of the regiment. They were on the same mission. It's not like Benteen ran into a senior officer of the 2nd cavalry. But if we follow your logic and Tom Custer sent Kanipe than Benteen could ignore it since it didn't come from George. Kanipe had an alleged verbal message from Tom Custer for the pack train. I am reasonably sure that Benteen was a little frustrated in having no contact and taking the ordered direction of travel with no positive results. I would think I would be telling Sgt Kanipe hey DA do you see any pack mules here. Look down the creek that you just came up with pack train following you and you will find the pack train and the rear guard. I never got kind words from an officer when I was not thinking. In infantry training at Camp Pendleton I was on a listening post and we were over run. We ran back to the main body and I attempted to report. I was way jacked up and did not see the rank of the officer that I was reporting to until to late to save my embarrassment. He asked how many troops did I observe. I stated a million of them. As that came out of my mouth I saw a single star on his collar. Apparently he was there to observe how are training and practical exercise was going. What came out of his mouth was to the point and I got it. The good part was the first word was Marine but it went downhill from there fast. I revised my estimate numbers to 30 -50 troops based on the muzzle flashes that I observed. I learned a valuable lesson. Regards Steve
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Post by AZ Ranger on Sept 25, 2015 8:50:37 GMT -6
Beth Kanipe's story is that he had a message for McDougall from Tom Custer. What does any of that have to do with Benteen? If Kamipe was on a mission with a message that wasn't for Benteen why would Benteen slow him down with a chit chat?Because Benteen has been out of touch for some time and knowing where Custer was would be of some interest to him and because when he went off on his oblique march the command was advancing on a village of some size and he might just be curious to know how things were progressing. This information would have a bearing on his own movement to contact. Cheers
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Post by AZ Ranger on Sept 25, 2015 8:52:21 GMT -6
Beth Kanipe's story is that he had a message for McDougall from Tom Custer. What does any of that have to do with Benteen? If Kamipe was on a mission with a message that wasn't for Benteen why would Benteen slow him down with a chit chat?Because Benteen has been out of touch for some time and knowing where Custer was would be of some interest to him and because when he went off on his oblique march the command was advancing on a village of some size and he might just be curious to know how things were progressing. This information would have a bearing on his own movement to contact. Cheers Richard Apply that same logic to Benteen running into Reno who is second in command of the regiment. Regards Steve
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Post by wild on Sept 25, 2015 9:11:17 GMT -6
HI AZ Logic has nothing to do with US officers making the best available decision even if that means they disregard an order Sorry AZ "best" does not cut the mustard. There is the CO's intent and there is derliction of duty. If "best" was a tangiable element in the command and control system then there would be a numbers book on it. Ther is not.
You keep stating that Benteen halted his forward movement and therefore you are ignoring the Martin note requiring bring packs. Benteen moved forward as the packs arrived to his location Sorry my friend this won't do. Benteen communicated nada with the packs and gave no orders to move forward ;he just went forward on his own hook.
The Indians play a more important role in Benteen and Reno not moving forward toward the horse herd and village. They can thank Custer for selecting two NOGO terrain features to be placed between them and completion of the mission. Look ! Nothing Benteen could do would save Custer's hide ,once he descended MTC he was toast. That does not excuse Benteen from doing his duty. Benteen must be judged according to the situation at high noon or what ever time Fred says it was when he arrived at Reno Hill. Further, this tragedy is in a number of acts.People here argue as if these acts are stand alone.They are not.They have implications for their later companions . To wit the Ford D jaunt depends on Custer believing there is no reason why Benteen will not arrive as per orders. Does anyone see the contradiction? Cheers
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Post by wild on Sept 25, 2015 9:16:47 GMT -6
Well you got an U.S. officer to respond. And one I respect. Cheers
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Post by wild on Sept 25, 2015 9:25:51 GMT -6
AZ
Apply that same logic to Benteen running into Reno who is second in command of the regiment Custer is responsible for [or maybe Cooke]the reeling in of reinforcements. The reinforcements are Custer's ace in the hole.He must position himself so as to link up with the arriving Benteen . Cheers
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Post by wild on Sept 25, 2015 9:35:22 GMT -6
Hi Tom
Had I been in the jungle in the 60's, Weir would have walked point(alone) or brought up the rear. So we agree that Benteen made a mistake here. Breaking, not so much breaking, as he was too lenient, which may have led to the later antics. Is this a sinner come to repent ? is it possible that at least one reprobate is wavring between logic and loyalty? Good man good post. Best Regards Richard
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Post by AZ Ranger on Sept 25, 2015 14:50:05 GMT -6
HI AZ Logic has nothing to do with US officers making the best available decision even if that means they disregard an orderSorry AZ "best" does not cut the mustard. There is the CO's intent and there is derliction of duty. If "best" was a tangiable element in the command and control system then there would be a numbers book on it. Ther is not. Both Clair and montrose agree on the deision making. Clair states the best decision and montrose the best available decision. Mustard has nothing to do with officer decision making in the US military and best does. You keep stating that Benteen halted his forward movement and therefore you are ignoring the Martin note requiring bring packs. Benteen moved forward as the packs arrived to his locationSorry my friend this won't do. Benteen communicated nada with the packs and gave no orders to move forward ;he just went forward on his own hook. There was no need to communicate the pack train was heading in the right direction and a "messenger" was sent to the pack train. The Indians play a more important role in Benteen and Reno not moving forward toward the horse herd and village. They can thank Custer for selecting two NOGO terrain features to be placed between them and completion of the mission.
Look ! Nothing Benteen could do would save Custer's hide ,once he descended MTC he was toast. That does not excuse Benteen from doing his duty. Benteen must be judged according to the situation at high noon or what ever time Fred says it was when he arrived at Reno Hill. Further, this tragedy is in a number of acts.People here argue as if these acts are stand alone.They are not.They have implications for their later companions . To wit the Ford D jaunt depends on Custer believing there is no reason why Benteen will not arrive as per orders. Does anyone see the contradiction? Cheers There is no obligation to sacrifice troops just to say you tried if you have reached the conclusion that it was impossible to do something. It doesn't matter what Custer believed in regards to Indian numbers and there effect on Benteen carrying out any order. Its what Benteen believes in regards to a change of conditions.
Do you really believe Custer intended to go to Ford Ds when he sent Martin?
Do you really believe the pack could cross MTC?
Regards
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