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Post by wild on Sept 24, 2015 5:58:21 GMT -6
Hello Dave
Hello Wild: we diverge greatly on opinions here. I do not have a military background but, per AZ Ranger/Benteeneast the military's goal is to win. If this is not possible make the best decision available, That decision is for the commanding officer and anyway was premature by a mile and a half and maybe 30 minutes. "Best" is a variable and variables are fault lines in systems .The army prefare doing things by the numbers and number one is doing what your CO has ordered you to do.
Should the Brits have thumbed their noses at the rescue ships in Dunquerque Harbor and fought the Germans to the last man because the ultimate mission was to defeat Germany? The Brits were ordered to withdraw . Cheers
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Post by wild on Sept 24, 2015 6:21:32 GMT -6
Hi AZ
As long as I have known you on these boards going back to the Against All Odds board you have held the same opinion on Benteen. I have never understood it so it must be something from your side of the pond. Just my observation. Logic does not change by crossing over an ocean . And no ,I did not always hold this view . I was of much the same view as your good self on Bemteen but then as I got to learn more of the detail I changed my view, helped not a little by the fact that it got our late lamented friend foaming at the mouth. What surprises me is that you and Dan being Marines hold the opinions you do, bearing in mind that the Marines did not even allow you to consider your selves as individuals......This marine etc .
Benteen by halting stopped the forward momentum and allowed his troops to mingle with defeated dispirited troops and officers .Morale must have dropped like a lead balloon . He reported his command to a shocked officer who was not fit to command at that juncture . And rather than support him in fact undermined him.
Of course the people we would like to hear from on this are our resident officers .They remain silent ? Well one won't debate and the other in my opinion will not take a stand on it because it might appear to give succour to certain clowns . Best Regards Richard
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Post by edavids on Sept 24, 2015 7:23:42 GMT -6
Hello Dave Hello Wild: we diverge greatly on opinions here. I do not have a military background but, per AZ Ranger/Benteeneast the military's goal is to win. If this is not possible make the best decision available,That decision is for the commanding officer and anyway was premature by a mile and a half and maybe 30 minutes. "Best" is a variable and variables are fault lines in systems .The army prefare doing things by the numbers and number one is doing what your CO has ordered you to do. Should the Brits have thumbed their noses at the rescue ships in Dunquerque Harbor and fought the Germans to the last man because the ultimate mission was to defeat Germany?The Brits were ordered to withdraw . Cheers You got me on the Brits being ordered to withdraw. Touche.
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Post by Colt45 on Sept 24, 2015 8:29:34 GMT -6
Hi AZ As long as I have known you on these boards going back to the Against All Odds board you have held the same opinion on Benteen. I have never understood it so it must be something from your side of the pond. Just my observation.Logic does not change by crossing over an ocean . And no ,I did not always hold this view . I was of much the same view as your good self on Bemteen but then as I got to learn more of the detail I changed my view, helped not a little by the fact that it got our late lamented friend foaming at the mouth. What surprises me is that you and Dan being Marines hold the opinions you do, bearing in mind that the Marines did not even allow you to consider your selves as individuals......This marine etc . Benteen by halting stopped the forward momentum and allowed his troops to mingle with defeated dispirited troops and officers .Morale must have dropped like a lead balloon . He reported his command to a shocked officer who was not fit to command at that juncture . And rather than support him in fact undermined him. Of course the people we would like to hear from on this are our resident officers .They remain silent ? Well one won't debate and the other in my opinion will not take a stand on it because it might appear to give succour to certain clowns . Best Regards Richard Like Steve, I don't understand your opinion of Benteen. I think you are viewing him with 21st century eyes rather than 19th century eyes, using modern day standards with which to judge him. This is a very common occurrence and difficult to avoid doing. As officers, we were trained not only to obey orders, but to use our initiative and judgement. That's why we were made officers, to use our brains. We were not expected to blindly obey orders, but to follow lawful orders to the best of our ability and to react to changing situations on the ground. In modern warfare, we have radios and other modern tools with which to "see" the battlefield far beyond what our eyes and ears will let us take in. In Benteen's era, he had none of those tools. He only had a very poorly and vaguely worded order from Custer, which also had contradictory parts in it. As he is following that order, he sees friendlies engaged heavily with the enemy, and he also sees the good guys are losing badly. He decides to go to their location as that is where he will be needed. He also at this time is still following Custer's order. Remember, he has no idea of where Custer is, what he is doing, or how the overall battle is playing out. He arrives at Reno hill, finds a badly mauled unit still under attack, a superior officer who pleads with him to assist (which makes that plea an order by the way), and still no idea of Custer, his whereabouts, or situation. For all Benteen knows, Custer is just on the other side of Sharpshooter ridge, or still down in the valley. He was told to bring the packs, but not told where to bring the packs to. How does he know that Reno Hill isn't the place Custer wanted the packs brought to? He doesn't. Now he has the XO telling him to stay and help, a Custer clan member wanting to run off to the north to find George, and a lot of men needing medical attention and direction to get reorganized. Reno doesn't seem to be in a position to exercise control, so he has to. That means he has to use his judgement about what should be done. I know if I had been Benteen, rolling up on the scene with the same lack of knowledge of the overall situation, I would have stayed and assisted in organizing the unit, taking care of wounded, getting the unit organized to either move out to fight or to defend in place if the hostile situation required it. And by army regulations, protocol, whatever, Major Reno was automatically in charge and his orders would have to be obeyed unless he was found incapable. If an officer decides his superior is incapable, and he acts on his own against the wishes of the superior, he damn well better be right and have some supporting facts to back him up for later. In this case, Benteen didn't override Reno directly, but rather just used his initiative to do those things that experience dictated needed to be done. I see no evidence of Benteen ever breaking during the entire event. That is not to say he performed brilliantly (he didn't), but I think he did a rather decent job given the bag of crap he found himself holding.
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Post by dave on Sept 24, 2015 9:12:47 GMT -6
Beth That is a great analogy of Weir. I too think he was very concerned about not being with Custer and in on the kill. Once he got to Weir point he couldn't wait to skedaddled, it was him not the Indians who did it, and get back under Benteen's wing and defense.
Colt
I wish I could explain with words as well as you do about what happened on the bluffs after all 7 companies reassembled. Hard to refute what you say but someone will. Regards Dave
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alanw
Junior Member
Posts: 74
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Post by alanw on Sept 24, 2015 10:03:25 GMT -6
Beth That is a great analogy of Weir. I too think he was very concerned about not being with Custer and in on the kill. Once he got to Weir point he couldn't wait to skedaddled, it was him not the Indians who did it, and get back under Benteen's wing and defense. My view of Weir's action was that he thought Custer needed help, even if only in pushing home any attack, as the Indians might get away. If his decision was based solely on being with Custer for the kill, (who supposedly needed the extra men and ammo/packs anyway) then a half hour delay in supporting a 'non-troubled' Custer wouldn't really make any difference. I might be wrong of course, but that was my perception of his action. With regards withdrawing from Weir Point, in the face of hundreds of Indians I can't criticise that move. He would have known by then that he had no chance of getting through to Custer. Again, only my perception of his actions. Interesting how we on this board can come to different conclusions. It does add to the discussions though - and for me it is not about being right, but learning.
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Post by tubman13 on Sept 24, 2015 10:46:24 GMT -6
Richard,
I was only an E-7, had one of my subordinates, wandered off ahead of the rest of the team, for whatever reason, I would have ripped him a new on. I would have done this in front of the whole team. He would have been put in his place or removed of any responsibility. There is a time to ignore a minor infraction and maybe take the discussion behind closed doors, this was not one of them. If I was hunting with Dave, on his hunting trip I would apply a shock collar on a high setting. I also would train my dogs better than he, in the first place.
Had I been in the jungle in the 60's, Weir would have walked point(alone) or brought up the rear. So we agree that Benteen made a mistake here. Breaking, not so much breaking, as he was too lenient, which may have led to the later antics.
Regards, Tom
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Post by dave on Sept 24, 2015 12:24:56 GMT -6
Shock Collar! Regards Dave
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Post by Beth on Sept 24, 2015 14:25:24 GMT -6
Beth That is a great analogy of Weir. I too think he was very concerned about not being with Custer and in on the kill. Once he got to Weir point he couldn't wait to skedaddled, it was him not the Indians who did it, and get back under Benteen's wing and defense. My view of Weir's action was that he thought Custer needed help, even if only in pushing home any attack, as the Indians might get away. If his decision was based solely on being with Custer for the kill, (who supposedly needed the extra men and ammo/packs anyway) then a half hour delay in supporting a 'non-troubled' Custer wouldn't really make any difference. I might be wrong of course, but that was my perception of his action. With regards withdrawing from Weir Point, in the face of hundreds of Indians I can't criticise that move. He would have known by then that he had no chance of getting through to Custer. Again, only my perception of his actions. Interesting how we on this board can come to different conclusions. It does add to the discussions though - and for me it is not about being right, but learning. What indications did Weir have that Custer would or did need help at that time? I don't believe at that point anyone traveling with Benteen has seen the village to know the exact number of NA in the area--other than it's a village. Weir does see NA retreating around Reno Hill though but he would have no idea where NA are heading and possibly, based on the attitude of the day, if Weir thought about it, he would believe the NA were fleeing like usual--because Indians always run you know. Weir may or may not hear firing in the distance (not everyone was able to hear it). However gunfire could mean Custer was engaged but there would be absolutely no reason to believe that Custer was endangered based on the information they had at that time. I believe perhaps the thought that Custer couldn't handle anything he met didn't even enter anyone's mind until much later in the day and into the night. In my thinking the only reason Weir was so anxious to get to Custer is because he thought that was 'the place to be' and he wasn't part of it. Take a look at his impatience at the morass--that was before Benteen had received Cooke's message when there wasn't even any information that they had found the village yet Weir was acting the same way.
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Post by benteen on Sept 24, 2015 14:35:25 GMT -6
What indications did Weir have that Custer would or did need help at that time? I don't believe at that point anyone traveling with Benteen has seen the village to know the exact number of NA in the area--other than it's a village. Weir does see NA retreating around Reno Hill though but he would have no idea where NA are heading and possibly, based on the attitude of the day, if Weir thought about it, he would believe the NA were fleeing like usual--because Indians always run you know. Weir may or may not hear firing in the distance (not everyone was able to hear it). However gunfire could mean Custer was engaged but there would be absolutely no reason to believe that Custer was endangered based on the information they had at that time. I believe perhaps the thought that Custer couldn't handle anything he met didn't even enter anyone's mind until much later in the day and into the night. In my thinking the only reason Weir was so anxious to get to Custer is because he thought that was 'the place to be' and he wasn't part of it. Take a look at his impatience at the morass--that was before Benteen had received Cooke's message when there wasn't even any information that they had found the village yet Weir was acting the same way. Beth, I think your post is on the money. Much of it is directly supported by the participants at the RCOI. Be Well Dan
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Post by wild on Sept 24, 2015 16:51:56 GMT -6
Hi Colt 45 First off my apologies I thought we had just two officers posting here. And thanks for your challenging reply.
Like Steve, I don't understand your opinion of Benteen. Ok bottom line........... When Benteen halted his battalion that was the end of all offensive action.The battle was over . This was not his call to make and comes nowhere near using his best judgement to further his COs intent. The argument that he consoladated and restored the defeated Reno battalion does not stand up . He did not inform the packs of the situation even though two messengers reached him .He did not send for the ammo . Allowing his 2i/c to depart the scene with a company in tow is beyond belief what ever standards you apply . His departing the scene himself without informing Reno and without orders not only is derliction of duty but indicates that far from restoring Reno's battalion he did precisely nothing other than add to the shambles .
As he is following that order, he sees friendlies engaged heavily with the enemy, and he also sees the good guys are losing badly. He decides to go to their location as that is where he will be needed The deploynent of detachments is the CO's call . In military terms he is not needed by Reno because Reno is out of the battle .It is the mission which needs him.
I know if I had been Benteen, rolling up on the scene with the same lack of knowledge of the overall situation, I would have stayed and assisted in organizing the unit, taking care of wounded, getting the unit organized to either move out to fight or to defend in place if the hostile situation required it Benteen dismissed Kanipe a sergeant coming from the Custer's command without as much as a "how's it going up there ? what happening? Speaks volumns of the man's positivity.
And by army regulations, protocol, whatever, Major Reno was automatically in charge and his orders would have to be obeyed unless he was found incapable. Reno did not countermand Benteen;s orders . The orders of the officer in overall command are not conditional on chance meetings with a local senior officer. Units could never transit a battle field if there was an automatic protocol.
That is not to say he performed brilliantly (he didn't), but I think he did a rather decent job given the bag of crap he found himself holdingHe was lucky Custer was dead ,he was lucky the army did not want to know and he was lucky Reno was compromised by his defeat and was in no position be bring charges. And when he did decide to go to work he did show leadership qualities . Cheers
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Post by Beth on Sept 24, 2015 17:10:25 GMT -6
Hi Colt 45 First off my apologies I thought we had just two officers posting here. And thanks for your challenging reply. Like Steve, I don't understand your opinion of Benteen.Ok bottom line........... When Benteen halted his battalion that was the end of all offensive action.The battle was over . This was not his call to make and comes nowhere near using his best judgement to further his COs intent. The argument that he consoladated and restored the defeated Reno battalion does not stand up . He did not inform the packs of the situation even though two messengers reached him .He did not send for the ammo . Allowing his 2i/c to depart the scene with a company in tow is beyond belief what ever standards you apply . His departing the scene himself without informing Reno and without orders not only is derliction of duty but indicates that far from restoring Reno's battalion he did precisely nothing other than add to the shambles . As he is following that order, he sees friendlies engaged heavily with the enemy, and he also sees the good guys are losing badly. He decides to go to their location as that is where he will be neededThe deploynent of detachments is the CO's call . In military terms he is not needed by Reno because Reno is out of the battle .It is the mission which needs him. I know if I had been Benteen, rolling up on the scene with the same lack of knowledge of the overall situation, I would have stayed and assisted in organizing the unit, taking care of wounded, getting the unit organized to either move out to fight or to defend in place if the hostile situation required itBenteen dismissed Kanipe a sergeant coming from the Custer's command without as much as a "how's it going up there ? what happening? Speaks volumns of the man's positivity. And by army regulations, protocol, whatever, Major Reno was automatically in charge and his orders would have to be obeyed unless he was found incapable.Reno did not countermand Benteen;s orders . The orders of the officer in overall command are not conditional on chance meetings with a local senior officer. Units could never transit a battle field if there was an automatic protocol. That is not to say he performed brilliantly (he didn't), but I think he did a rather decent job given the bag of crap he found himself holdingHe was lucky Custer was dead ,he was lucky the army did not want to know and he was lucky Reno was compromised by his defeat and was in no position be bring charges. And when he did decide to go to work he did show leadership qualities . Cheers Kanipe's story is that he had a message for McDougall from Tom Custer. What does any of that have to do with Benteen? If Kamipe was on a mission with a message that wasn't for Benteen why would Benteen slow him down with a chit chat?
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Post by wild on Sept 24, 2015 17:35:10 GMT -6
Beth Kanipe's story is that he had a message for McDougall from Tom Custer. What does any of that have to do with Benteen? If Kamipe was on a mission with a message that wasn't for Benteen why would Benteen slow him down with a chit chat? Because Benteen has been out of touch for some time and knowing where Custer was would be of some interest to him and because when he went off on his oblique march the command was advancing on a village of some size and he might just be curious to know how things were progressing. This information would have a bearing on his own movement to contact. Cheers
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Post by tubman13 on Sept 24, 2015 17:37:10 GMT -6
Richard,
One of us is in the minority here. I think some part of the other board might disagree with the consensus here. There is room for 2 opinions. At least no edits or redacting here!
*** Regards, Tom
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Post by edavids on Sept 24, 2015 17:51:08 GMT -6
Love your post on Weir, Beth. Strictly conjecture as I do not believe Weir was responsible for any post battle reports, Weir would see the aftermath of Reno's debacle in the valley and likely made aware that there were lots of N/A's and they were not skedaddling. We will never know for sure what he saw from Weir point but my guess is that he recognized a disaster in progress.
Best,
David
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