|
Post by Colt45 on Sept 25, 2015 15:33:30 GMT -6
Hi Colt 45 First off my apologies I thought we had just two officers posting here. And thanks for your challenging reply. Like Steve, I don't understand your opinion of Benteen.Ok bottom line........... When Benteen halted his battalion that was the end of all offensive action.The battle was over . This was not his call to make and comes nowhere near using his best judgement to further his COs intent. The argument that he consoladated and restored the defeated Reno battalion does not stand up . He did not inform the packs of the situation even though two messengers reached him .He did not send for the ammo . Allowing his 2i/c to depart the scene with a company in tow is beyond belief what ever standards you apply . His departing the scene himself without informing Reno and without orders not only is derliction of duty but indicates that far from restoring Reno's battalion he did precisely nothing other than add to the shambles . The offensive action ended when Reno broke out of the timber and moved to the bluffs. The battle, however, was far from over. It was Reno's call as to what happened after Benteen joined him. Benteen showed the note to Reno, and Reno implored him to remain and assist. In the US army, that is the same as a direct order. Benteen would have been in a world of hurt legally if he had told Reno to pound sand, he was going to Custer as per the note, as you suggest he should have done. Consolidating and assisting wounded is a priority, especially since Benteen had no idea what was going on with Custer. As far as he or anyone else knew, Custer was out there doing just fine. As he is following that order, he sees friendlies engaged heavily with the enemy, and he also sees the good guys are losing badly. He decides to go to their location as that is where he will be neededThe deploynent of detachments is the CO's call . In military terms he is not needed by Reno because Reno is out of the battle .It is the mission which needs him. The CO on Reno hill was Reno. Reno wanted Benteen to remain. Reno certainly didn't think he was out of the battle, neither did his troops or the hostiles still engaging Reno and his men when Benteen arrived. I know if I had been Benteen, rolling up on the scene with the same lack of knowledge of the overall situation, I would have stayed and assisted in organizing the unit, taking care of wounded, getting the unit organized to either move out to fight or to defend in place if the hostile situation required itBenteen dismissed Kanipe a sergeant coming from the Custer's command without as much as a "how's it going up there ? what happening? Speaks volumns of the man's positivity. I don't agree that this speaks volumes. Kanipe, if he told the truth, was dispatched to the pack train, not Benteen. It's just luck he ran into Benteen at all, and that wouldn't have happened if Benteen had kept chasing empty terrain all the way to the LBH. And by army regulations, protocol, whatever, Major Reno was automatically in charge and his orders would have to be obeyed unless he was found incapable.Reno did not countermand Benteen;s orders . The orders of the officer in overall command are not conditional on chance meetings with a local senior officer. Units could never transit a battle field if there was an automatic protocol. In the US army, a subordinate officer can be countermanded by a senior officer, regardless of the subordinate's previous instructions. Reno had every right to do so, and the situation on the ground rendered Custer's note orders obsolete anyway. The situation on the hill all but demanded Benteen deal with it. I think you keep judging Benteen's actions through the modern prism and with non-US army standards. Benteen did not in any way, through actions or inactions, have any bearing on what happened to Custer. That was Custer's own fault. That is not to say he performed brilliantly (he didn't), but I think he did a rather decent job given the bag of crap he found himself holdingHe was lucky Custer was dead ,he was lucky the army did not want to know and he was lucky Reno was compromised by his defeat and was in no position be bring charges. And when he did decide to go to work he did show leadership qualities . Cheers Here we may find some measure of agreement, though not about Benteen himself. The LBH battle was egg all over the army's face, and no one wanted to be held to blame. Terry's initial report indicated there was a disaster, but he wasn't completely sure what happened. Later, he began to correctly attach blame to the unit commander, Custer, though not aggressively. Like Terry, everyone in upper ranks just wanted the whole thing to be blamed on overwhelming numbers of Indians and not failings within the army itself. Only when Reno got tired of being blamed by Libby did he request and receive the RCOI, and even in that, the army wanted to save face, so they were inclined not to find fault with anyone living, and also tried to avoid blaming the dead. It was a whitewash to cover up the army more than to vindicate Reno. They just wanted the whole thing to blow over as quickly as possible.
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Sept 25, 2015 15:52:09 GMT -6
The Indians play a more important role in Benteen and Reno not moving forward toward the horse herd and village. They can thank Custer for selecting two NOGO terrain features to be placed between them and completion of the mission.Look ! Nothing Benteen could do would save Custer's hide ,once he descended MTC he was toast. That does not excuse Benteen from doing his duty. Benteen must be judged according to the situation at high noon or what ever time Fred says it was when he arrived at Reno Hill. Further, this tragedy is in a number of acts.People here argue as if these acts are stand alone.They are not.They have implications for their later companions . To wit the Ford D jaunt depends on Custer believing there is no reason why Benteen will not arrive as per orders. Does anyone see the contradiction? Cheers Why in the world would Custer take an action dependant on Benteen's arrival--he can make plans but I don't see how he could take any actions. Custer has no idea what Benteen's state is when he sent off the message and Martini has not returned so he doesn't even know if Benteen received the message. For all he knows Benteen might have found a small outlying village or a war party and was engaged in his own battle. He can plan that include Benteen's arrival but he has no way to guarantee that Benteen will arrive. Anything could delay Benteen--like having his way blocked by hostiles so he can't get through.
|
|
|
Post by benteen on Sept 25, 2015 16:30:27 GMT -6
]Why in the world would Custer take an action dependant on Benteen's arrival--he can make plans but I don't see how he could take any actions. Custer has no idea what Benteen's state is when he sent off the message and Martini has not returned so he doesn't even know if Benteen received the message. For all he knows Benteen might have found a small outlying village or a war party and was engaged in his own battle. He can plan that include Benteen's arrival but he has no way to guarantee that Benteen will arrive. Anything could delay Benteen--like having his way blocked by hostiles so he can't get through.
[/quote)
Beth,
Exactly..Fine post. I have been saying the same thing. Can a commander change the location of one of his elements to formulate a different plan. Of course he can. But he has to know the disposition and the ETA of that element. As you say Custer had no way of knowing if Benteen got the message. We know that Martinis horse was shot, it could have been Martini and Custers message would be floating in the LBH River.
That is why Beth for this and other reasons (and I am the only one in this or the other forum) I do not believe that Custer deployed 3/5 of his force at one location and then rode of with 90 men out of supporting distance of each other. I have seen no logical explanation why any commander, even Custer (Whos actions I believe from start to finish were FUBAR) would do such a thing.
Be Well Dan
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Sept 25, 2015 17:32:21 GMT -6
I tend to believe that it was a total possibility--of course we have no which way it went for sure. I used to think that everything had sort of desperate feel with Custer's movements-sending everyone every which way but I am moving away from that school of thought. That's the beauty of LBH you can always change your opinion on what happened based on further reading.
Currently I don't think Custer felt he was in danger or under pressure. Maybe he was around deploying people in position like you set up a chessboard while he took stock of his situation and the lay of the land. Perhaps Custer thought he had everything under control, units on Battle ridge, Reno engaged pushing the natives north and Benteen heading his way with the packs. Custer didn't realize that he was at his tipping point and in moments he would find everything that he thought was realty was actually based on false assumptions and he couldn't recover.
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Sept 25, 2015 17:37:41 GMT -6
Dan your quotes would enclose in a box if you wrote them this way [ quote ] message you want to quote [ /quote ] (you have to remove the spaces in the command). You are having a problem because you are using () not []
|
|
|
Post by wild on Sept 25, 2015 21:42:50 GMT -6
Beth Dan
Post by benteen on 4 hours ago ]Why in the world would Custer take an action dependant on Benteen's arrival--he can make plans but I don't see how he could take any actions. Custer has no idea what Benteen's state is when he sent off the message and Martini has not returned so he doesn't even know if Benteen received the message. For all he knows Benteen might have found a small outlying village or a war party and was engaged in his own battle. He can plan that include Benteen's arrival but he has no way to guarantee that Benteen will arrive. Anything could delay Benteen--like having his way blocked by hostiles so he can't get through This question must be put to he sponsers of the Ford D scenario . The point is this ; you cannot have the Ford D scenario and at the same time take a position supporting Benteen's action at Reno Hill. Ford D has Keogh and 3 companies posted on Calhoun for the purpose of reeling in Benteen . I'm just trying to show that the majority view on these two "acts" are inconsistant .
If battlefield orders were conditional on certainity then no orders would be issued at all. And in this case a local senior officer [Reno] had more effect on the COs orders than any enemy action. Best Regards
|
|
|
Post by wild on Sept 25, 2015 22:18:00 GMT -6
Hi Colt
In the US army, a subordinate officer can be countermanded by a senior officer, regardless of the subordinate's previous instructions You previously posted that the subordinate automatically came under the command of the local senior officer. There is an ocean of difference between "can" and automatic . The act of countermanding a CO's battlefield orders is not routine but is of such exception that a proceedure is demanded to be followed. No such proceedure was followed and Benteen did not make a case for adhearing to his orders.
Consolidating and assisting wounded is a priority, especially since Benteen had no idea what was going on with Custer. As far as he or anyone else knew, Custer was out there doing just fine. The above rings hollow when you consider that the wounded were left to be carried in blankets by their comrades while Benteen took off without orders.
Consolidating and assisting wounded is a priority Not on a battlefield and not by combat troops . Attending to wounded will cause more casualties than might be the case if offensive action was pushed home.
I don't agree that this speaks volumes. Kanipe, if he told the truth, was dispatched to the pack train, not Benteen. It's just luck he ran into Benteen at all, and that wouldn't have happened if Benteen had kept chasing empty terrain all the way to the LBH. The chance meeting with Kanipe is not the point . Benteen has been out of the frame for some time . Would you not think that he would inquire of Kanipe as to the situation up ahead? This is not just a one off show of indifference but fits into a pattern of negative sulking passiveness.
Yes agree 100% on army attitude to the disaster. Cheers
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Sept 26, 2015 12:03:27 GMT -6
Beth Dan Post by benteen on 4 hours ago ]Why in the world would Custer take an action dependant on Benteen's arrival--he can make plans but I don't see how he could take any actions. Custer has no idea what Benteen's state is when he sent off the message and Martini has not returned so he doesn't even know if Benteen received the message. For all he knows Benteen might have found a small outlying village or a war party and was engaged in his own battle. He can plan that include Benteen's arrival but he has no way to guarantee that Benteen will arrive. Anything could delay Benteen--like having his way blocked by hostiles so he can't get throughThis question must be put to he sponsers of the Ford D scenario . The point is this ; you cannot have the Ford D scenario and at the same time take a position supporting Benteen's action at Reno Hill. Ford D has Keogh and 3 companies posted on Calhoun for the purpose of reeling in Benteen . I'm just trying to show that the majority view on these two "acts" are inconsistant . If battlefield orders were conditional on certainity then no orders would be issued at all. And in this case a local senior officer [Reno] had more effect on the COs orders than any enemy action. Best Regards I don't mean to be rude but I honestly have no idea what you mean. What does one have to do with the other? Custer's actions at one end of the battlefield doesn't reflect on what was happening at the other. Frankly at times perhaps because I have absolutely no military background, I'm not sure if they should be looked at as one really long, thin battlefield, two small ones, or three for that matter, when you consider the valley. If Custer had known that Reno had to breakout from the valley and took a position on Reno Hill, placing himself in-between himself and Benteen, Custer probably would have taken different actions. Instead, Custer is operating totally blind and oblivious to what is happening behind him. At the same time Reno and Benteen are operating pretty much totally blind and oblivious to what was happening with Custer, each group can only act based on what they see right before them. We only know what happened with Reno and Benteen because they survived. We have no idea what orders Custer may have given after the point Martini left--anything beyond that point can only be theories surmised on the best information available. Who knows, if Custer knew about Reno's predicament and of Benteen's arrival, he himself might have said 'Benteen hold up there until that situation is stable, then bring up the packs"
|
|
|
Post by wild on Sept 27, 2015 13:13:07 GMT -6
Hi Beth
I don't mean to be rude but I honestly have no idea what you mean. What does one have to do with the other?
Custer's actions at one end of the battlefield doesn't reflect on what was happening at the other. They most certainly do Beth . The" majority view" [which is being discussed on the Ford D thread]holds that Custer initiation an operation; to wit a recce to Ford D for the purpose of attacking the rear of the Indian village on the arrival of Benteen . Custer splits his forces [while in contact with the enemy...suicidal]to facilitate the joining up of Benteen.
Meanwhile back at Reno Hill the "majority view" are supporting Benteen's action of halting his battalion and reporting his command to Reno. The "majority view" cannot have it both ways. If the Ford D operation is tactically sound then Benteen's action was a catastrophic blunder . Cheers
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Sept 27, 2015 16:44:15 GMT -6
If battlefield orders were conditional on certainity then no orders would be issued at all. And in this case a local senior officer [Reno] had more effect on the COs orders than any enemy action. Best Regards I suspect that it was Custer's previous orders to Reno and the enemy action due to that order had more of an effect on Custer's order to Benteen. Custer's orders to Reno set up the situation that made it necessary for Benteen to aid Reno.
|
|
|
Post by wild on Sept 28, 2015 0:31:31 GMT -6
Hi Beth
I suspect that it was Custer's previous orders to Reno and the enemy action due to that order had more of an effect on Custer's order to Benteen. Custer's orders to Reno set up the situation that made it necessary for Benteen to aid Reno. In the military "necessary" is what the officer commanding decides is "necessary". Cheers
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Sept 28, 2015 17:55:11 GMT -6
Hi Beth I suspect that it was Custer's previous orders to Reno and the enemy action due to that order had more of an effect on Custer's order to Benteen. Custer's orders to Reno set up the situation that made it necessary for Benteen to aid Reno.In the military "necessary" is what the officer commanding decides is "necessary". Cheers Exactly. And at the time Benteen arrived at Reno's position, Reno became his commanding officer and tell Benteen what is necessary from him at that moment. Seriously Wild, I am fat old lady from Iowa and I can understand that point--which has been repeatedly made by the all of the people on this board with military experience.
|
|
|
Post by wild on Sept 29, 2015 0:29:12 GMT -6
Hi Beth Exactly. And at the time Benteen arrived at Reno's position, Reno became his commanding officer and tell Benteen what is necessary from him at that moment. Seriously Wild, I am fat old lady from Iowa and I can understand that point--which has been repeatedly made by the all of the people on this board with military experience. And as sharp as a rapier if I may say so .
No order to halt was given to Benteen .Custer's orders were not countermanded by Reno . Benteen placed himself under Reno's command . Cheers
|
|
|
Post by dan25 on Oct 6, 2015 18:03:33 GMT -6
Hope I'am not intruding with this.
When Benteen arrived at Reno hill, things were quite hectic and Reno was having a bad day just getting there from the timbers. Benteen might have mentioned his orders from Custer, but according to John Martin, Reno screamed at Benteen, saying,"For God's sake Benteen halt your command and wait until I can organize my men". If this is true, then Benteen was infact just given an order from Reno that he had to obey.
When an order given by a superior it must be obeyed, the last order given countermands a previous order and the fault and liability of justification falls on the officer giving that order.
So in this case, Benteen is probably very happy to stay with Reno rather than go help Custer. And Reno's excuse for countermanding Custer's order must have been justifiable since he was never brought up on charges.
regards dan25
|
|