|
Post by quincannon on Jun 25, 2014 18:32:34 GMT -6
Ian: There is blame and there is responsibility. The commander is always responsible, no matter who committed the fault. It goes with the job, absolute, total, inescapable responsibility.
For it not to be so then those who blame Benteen for this, Reno for that, and Keogh for the other thing, might have the shakiest leg to stand on. THEY DO NOT,not in the United States Army anyway.
The first question anyone would ask, when someone tries to blame and more importantly shift responsibility is ---- Who the hell put them there Colonel. This is followed first by dead silence, a quibble or two, there is then the inevitable stutter. All this followed by you're are relieved, and I will decide if courts martial is appropriate.
|
|
|
Post by mac on Jun 26, 2014 3:09:27 GMT -6
So what Custer does at Ford A is notable as is his lack of information to Reno. My thought.. I think I would be better to post this on the Did Custer have a plan thread. Cheers
|
|
|
Post by welshofficer on Jun 27, 2014 20:31:45 GMT -6
So what Custer does at Ford A is notable as is his lack of information to Reno. My thought.. I think I would be better to post this on the Did Custer have a plan thread. Cheers
|
|
|
Post by welshofficer on Jun 27, 2014 20:35:02 GMT -6
So what Custer does at Ford A is notable as is his lack of information to Reno. My thought.. I think I would be better to post this on the Did Custer have a plan thread. Cheers A bit of a pointless thread, I sadly fear. Right up there with "Were Kimmel's early warning systems up to scratch on 7/12 1941?!", or "Was it a good idea for Franz Ferdinand to go to Sarajevo 100 years ago today?!"...
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Jun 27, 2014 21:50:30 GMT -6
Agreed. It is pointless. No written or oral documentation of intent, makes reconstruction and subsequent evaluation of intent impossible.
The only thing that can be determined with any degree of accuracy is that whatever it was he screwed it up big time.
Those who take exception to this ask yourself why, if what I said is not true, do we continually go around the same circle, hostages, flank attacks, support, lack of support, and all the rest. I guess it has the same attraction as the search for the Holy Grail or the True Cross of Christ, and the spear that pierced His side. We are drawn to the quest itself, full knowing privately that like the Grail, Spear, and Cross the answers are lost to history, but someday that I (the figurative I) will be the one to discover what has eluded all the others.
How can you determine plan when it is not even universally agreed upon as to where he went, what he saw, and what he did, and what was done to him by his adversary, and where.
Now I am off first thing in the morning to look for King Solomon's Mines, and find the tomb of the Queen of Sheba, and I think I have a better chance of accomplishing that then anyone here does in determining Custer's objective and the plan intended to implement that objective.
|
|
|
Post by Yan Taylor on Jun 28, 2014 3:27:30 GMT -6
Chuck, whilst your search for relics from a distant past, I will be trying to see into the future and hopefully picking the six winning lottery numbers in tonight’s draw.
Ian.
|
|
|
Post by mac on Jun 28, 2014 3:48:03 GMT -6
Good luck Ian. Some one has to win. How cool if we both have our numbers come up tonight! We can meet at QC's place and help him restain the mantle.
|
|
|
Post by Yan Taylor on Jun 28, 2014 8:15:16 GMT -6
Thanks Mac, I’d deffo book a trip over there for next year, Chuck’s Mantle reminded me of when we bought a new carved wooded fire surround in our last house, it came in a natural wood colour, and the missus asked me to stain it, so she went shopping and I went out to the shed and found a tin of dark oak wood stain and, I thought I did a really good job, when she returned and saw my finished work, she frowned and said she wanted stained pine (we also had a tin of pine stain in the shed but I missed it).
When I originally read Chucks post I though he was going to that his good lady had walked in a put a Tea Cup and Saucer on top of the still wet stain.
Ian.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Jun 28, 2014 8:23:10 GMT -6
One of the things that makes this quest, for want of a better name, so hard is that the other side was also completely without a plan, so we cannot even draw upon that to make certain conclusions regarding what Custer had in mind.
The Alamo is a battle I have some familiarity with. We have Santa Anna's plan for the assault in great detail. We know the starting positions, and from that can determine intermediate objectives. We know where he positioned his cavalry, and from that we can conclude that he was trying to force a break out at a specific place. We can evaluate what happened during the assault, for instance the commingling of the north and west columns and the friendly fire that occurred because of it.
It is from this plan for assault that we can reverse engineer Travis' plan to defend the place. What places were vital to hold. Those not. We can also look at the physical preparations made, the doors of buildings barricaded by earth and other material, where guns were placed to cover what approaches and alike. While Travis, was in many ways a Custer, he did take measures that we can evaluate, although no formal document of intent exists, and there were no survivors that could tell us of his intentions or how those intentions may have changed over the 13 day period.
With Custer we have only actions seemingly not bound together in a cohesive whole, and with Indians only reactions, complicated in the telling by the things most often discussed here. This is a long and at the end stages of our quest will be deemed a fruitless journey, to nowhere.
|
|
|
Post by mac on Jun 28, 2014 18:15:25 GMT -6
Yes we can never know. That is why I like fred's notion of applying probabilities. Cheers
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Jun 28, 2014 19:49:39 GMT -6
When you don't have certainties, probabilities based upon common sense and best practices is your only recourse, unless like some, thankfully not here, take the daily trip through the looking glass with Alice. Alice was a dumbshit, and those who travel with here dumber still.
|
|
|
Post by AZ Ranger on Jul 3, 2014 20:07:03 GMT -6
Just got back and picked up my new computer today. Got some catching up to do. Gordie's book went on sale at the trading post. Met Tom and had a great time discussing with him and his son at the 7th Ranch. Went on a walk with Donahue and Scott. As usual have more questions than answers. Next year I am rafting the river from MTF to the railroad bridge.
Regards
AZ Ranger
|
|
Jenny
Full Member
Posts: 202
|
Post by Jenny on Feb 5, 2023 18:56:37 GMT -6
Mac, I would say that the flow of markers from Keogh’s position would give you a good idea of which way the survivors went, the other exception may be C Company men who stayed mounted and declined to ride to Calhoun hill, but as you know it would be impossible to determine this. I don’t know how a Regimental HQ should look, but in the field I think that Custer had the right balance, but he padded it out with his Brother, civilians and scouts, Smith is the odd one out; Lt. G Custer 1st Lt. W Cooke 1st Lt. E Lord Sgt Major M Sharrow Chief Trumpeter H Voss Sgt F Hughes (Regimental Standard Bearer) Sgt J Vickory (second Flag Bearer) Trumpeter H Dose (Custer’s Orderly) Corp J Callahan (Dr Lords Orderly) Sgt F Hughes (Orderly) Trumpeter G Martini (Courier) Sgt F Hughes (Orderly) Justin, I agree that E Company men fled into deep ravine, and this could have happened before HQ/F had got to LSH, I have never heard any accounts that say that the Indians fought any major battle in the ravine, all I can find is that they (the grey horse soldiers) lost their horses and ran to a ravine. I do however agree that a final dash for survival was made, and how any of them ever got to deep ravine I don’t know, as the Indians would be thick around that area, I do recall reading that initially (as with Reno), the Indians simply moved out of the way and chased them once they passed, who wrote this I cannot remember, has anyone else read such a claim? Ian. Ian - I need to ask you about ^^ Vickory being the second flag bearer. I thought he was the Regimental Standard bearer? Also, was the standard generally carried by the 7th the eagle and stars on a blue field w/gold fringe? Its pretty well known that it was in its case at the pack train during the fight. From Hardorff, Indian Views of the Custer Fight, 104, footnote 14— “Survivors found the bodies of 42 men. Ten of these corpses lay on a little elevation, some 30 feet in diameter. Gen. George A. Custer was found near the southwestern edge of this elevation, behind a horse, his right leg resting across the body of an unidentified soldier, while his back was slumped against the bodies of Sgt. John Vickory, the regimental color bearer who lay face-up...." Jenny
|
|
|
Post by Yan Taylor on Feb 6, 2023 9:05:31 GMT -6
Hi Jenny. Thats a really old post you found there, I have amended my RHQ since that was done, here is the new version.
Custer’s Headquarters Detachment
Co Lt Col. G Custer (Regimental Commander) 1st Lieutenant (Adjutant/HQ Staff) W Cook 1st Lieutenant Lord (Assistant Surgeon) Sgt Major M Sharrow (H.Q. Staff) Sgt M Hughes (Co K) Regimental Standard Bearer Chief Trumpeter Sgt H Voss (H.Q. Staff) Corporal J Callahan (Co K) Orderly to Dr Lord Trumpeter G Martin (Co H) Orderly Trumpeter H Dose (Co G) Custer’s orderly Mitch Boyer (Quarter master scout) Boston Custer (Quarter master scout) Curley (Crow Scout) Goes Ahead (Crow Scout) Hairy Moccasin (Crow Scout) Whiteman Runs Him (Crow Scout) Mark Kellogg (Journalists) Autie Reed (Custer’s Nephew)
Fred has this on Vickory: SGT Vickory (Vickery, Vockroy, Victor, and Vickyard; aka, Groesbeck), John H. — b. Toronto, Canada, Jul1847. Blue eyes, brown hair, dark complexion; 5’ 10” tall. Enlisted 23Nov62 in 14th NY Heavy Artillery. Deserted 23Apr64 and enlisted in 2nd MA Cavalry as John Vickory, 10May64 to 2Jul65. Enlisted in Seventh Cavalry 31Jul66. Killed on Custer Hill; body found with GAC’s. There are some writers who say he was one of two personal flag-bearers for Custer (SGT Hughes [K] being the other). Listed number 91 in “June Returns, Alterations… Killed in action.”
I am sure that Sgt Vickory normally carried the Regimental Standard but that day it was not carried into the battle and as you mentioned it had been rolled up and left with the pack train, but why was Vickory there? his body was found on LSH, but so was his company (F). I placed him with his Company because I have not found any data saying otherwise, unless some one can enlighten me.
I think Custer took his "Headquarters Flag" into action, maybe Hughes or Vickory carried this?
Ian
|
|
|
Post by Kentishman on Feb 6, 2023 12:41:20 GMT -6
Hi Jenny. Thats a really old post you found there, I have amended my RHQ since that was done, here is the new version. Custer’s Headquarters Detachment Co Lt Col. G Custer (Regimental Commander) 1st Lieutenant (Adjutant/HQ Staff) W Cook 1st Lieutenant Lord (Assistant Surgeon) Sgt Major M Sharrow (H.Q. Staff) Sgt M Hughes (Co K) Regimental Standard Bearer Chief Trumpeter Sgt H Voss (H.Q. Staff) Corporal J Callahan (Co K) Orderly to Dr Lord Trumpeter G Martin (Co H) Orderly Trumpeter H Dose (Co G) Custer’s orderly Mitch Boyer (Quarter master scout) Boston Custer (Quarter master scout) Curley (Crow Scout) Goes Ahead (Crow Scout) Hairy Moccasin (Crow Scout) Whiteman Runs Him (Crow Scout) Mark Kellogg (Journalists) Autie Reed (Custer’s Nephew) Fred has this on Vickory: SGT Vickory (Vickery, Vockroy, Victor, and Vickyard; aka, Groesbeck), John H. — b. Toronto, Canada, Jul1847. Blue eyes, brown hair, dark complexion; 5’ 10” tall. Enlisted 23Nov62 in 14th NY Heavy Artillery. Deserted 23Apr64 and enlisted in 2nd MA Cavalry as John Vickory, 10May64 to 2Jul65. Enlisted in Seventh Cavalry 31Jul66. Killed on Custer Hill; body found with GAC’s. There are some writers who say he was one of two personal flag-bearers for Custer (SGT Hughes [K] being the other). Listed number 91 in “June Returns, Alterations… Killed in action.” I am sure that Sgt Vickory normally carried the Regimental Standard but that day it was not carried into the battle and as you mentioned it had been rolled up and left with the pack train, but why was Vickory there? his body was found on LSH, but so was his company (F). I placed him with his Company because I have not found any data saying otherwise, unless some one can enlighten me. I think Custer took his "Headquarters Flag" into action, maybe Hughes or Vickory carried this? Ian
|
|