|
Post by mac on Apr 15, 2014 6:44:40 GMT -6
We have been discussing Custer's plan. Part of his action is in fact a reaction to the movement of the Indians out to confront Reno. Most of those intially challenging Reno were presumably from that Southern end of the village and they simply grabbed weapons and went out there as one would. Warriors further North in the village would have more time to prepare for battle. For example some reports suggest Crazy Horse took so long that his comrades were becoming impatient. When Custer sees a quiet village and then goes down MTC and meets slight resistance he is perhaps then thinking there is little warrior presence so he can perhaps push on with more recon activity. The thought occurs to me that by the time he is at MTC not only are many warriors at Reno but a large number could be out getting their ponies etc thus giving him a false impression of the Indian reaction. By the time he is heading North a large number could be back ready to fight without Custer realising this movement has happened. I guess this is another timing issue. Cheers
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Apr 15, 2014 8:45:21 GMT -6
I think your premise sound in stating that the first to engage Reno were from the southern end of the village. It gives all new meaning to Come As You Are War, where they literally came as they were. Those in the north were slower to respond, taking more time in preparation, and I would suspect you are also correct that of these some had gone south before Custer arrived at a vantage point to observe, and yet others were out gathering up their ponies or attending to the security of the livestock, while still others were hidden from view. All this makes very good sense I think, and the bonus was to give Custer a distorted view of what confronted him. Sometimes chance enters into these things and can only be explained by just that - pure chance. Time never stands still, and an impression from 3411 or MTC Ford might not be anything like the situation a few moments later.
I would find this reaction to be very similar to a major tragedy occurring in any small town where those closest to the scene immediately rush to lend aid literally from a standing start, while those further away take time to prepare themselves to gather in helpful rescue equipment, medical supplies and the rest, before going to the affected area. Therefore the rest of that town my appear perfectly normal for a short time during the initial stages.
|
|
|
Post by Yan Taylor on Apr 15, 2014 9:32:32 GMT -6
Hi Chuck/Mac, the initial Indians that would have confronted Reno would be the Hunkpapa with other bands from the Santee, Yotanka Tatanka, Blackfeet and Yankton coming on behind. Crazy Horse’s camp was located just a little further north from these, but he did make it to the latter stages of the Reno fight. If all the tribes from the Oglala to the Hunkpapa made it to the valley fight then this leaves only the Minnicojou and Cheyenne left in the village, but..don’t quote me on that.
Ian.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Apr 15, 2014 9:52:28 GMT -6
You know Ian I am glad Mac posted this. I have often thought that the Martini sleeping village story full of disconnects. Needs more exploration I think.
|
|
|
Post by fuchs on Apr 15, 2014 11:17:59 GMT -6
Hi Chuck/Mac, the initial Indians that would have confronted Reno would be the Hunkpapa with other bands from the Santee, Yotanka Tatanka, Blackfeet and Yankton coming on behind. Crazy Horse’s camp was located just a little further north from these, but he did make it to the latter stages of the Reno fight. If all the tribes from the Oglala to the Hunkpapa made it to the valley fight then this leaves only the Minnicojou and Cheyenne left in the village, but..don’t quote me on that. Ian. Some results of the analysis of the warriors known to have been active in the battle from Fred's Participants: Numbers are large enough for halfway reliable statistics only for Cheyenne, Hunkpapa, Oglala and to a lesser degree Minniconjou: Hunkpapa: only about 1/2 of all warriors active went into the fight against Reno (!) Oglala: about 2/3 of all warriors active went into the fight against Reno Minneconjou: about 1/2 of all warriors active went into the fight against Reno Sioux overall (including the less numerously represented Lakota tribes and Dakota): about 1/2 of all warriors active went into the fight against Reno Cheyenne: about 1/3 of all warriors active went into the fight against Reno In all cases roughly half of those fighting Reno did also participate in the Custer fight. There is a small caveat regarding the level of confidence of how a specific warrior can be assigned to a specific tribe, i.e. included with the "Hunkpapa" might be some guys that ended up ultimately on Standing Rock but wouldn't have been considered Hunkpapa in 1876. But this effect is unlikely to be big enough to have much of an effect, and in any case those misattributed people would have been located close to the Hunkpapa in the LBH village anyway.
|
|
|
Post by fred on Apr 15, 2014 11:43:25 GMT -6
We have been discussing Custer's plan. Part of his action is in fact a reaction to the movement of the Indians out to confront Reno. Most of those intially challenging Reno were presumably from that Southern end of the village and they simply grabbed weapons and went out there as one would. Warriors further North in the village would have more time to prepare for battle…. This is a very, very interesting post to start a thread. Mac—intentionally or otherwise—points out the importance of context and how one event leads to another, establishing a consistent pattern linking various events… I guess we could say in something of a linear pattern. First of all, however, let me clarify some things from my perspective. Mac writes, “Part of his action is in fact a reaction….” I believe Custer’s entire action was a reaction to those Indians supposedly coming up to confront Reno. And they were not from the southern end of the village. Here is where we fall into the trap of treating individual, specific events as separate rather than continuous, all leading into and forming the whole. Remember along Reno Creek when Gerard made his comment about “running… devils”? Well, he was referring to a group of Indians farther down Reno Creek, probably by a small knoll I have dubbed, “Middle Knoll.” Gerard saw them; Herendeen reported seeing them; Hare saw them; and so did Davern—anywhere between 30 to 50. Well, where did they go? (These Indians alone burst the silly bubble of a satellite village on Reno Creek because there were no reports of travois, women, dogs, children… the impedimenta of a village.) While Reno’s command was riding down the LBH valley, several troopers reported the Indians Gerard claimed were coming back up the valley. Sergeant Culbertson: there was “… a very large cloud of dust” in front of the Indian village as the troops moved down the valley. He could see one hundred to one hundred fifty Indians—sometimes more—riding back and forth in front of the dust cloud. Major Marcus Reno saw forty or fifty Indians to his front. Lieutenant Hare saw the command stop near the timber, dismounting. Reno began setting up a skirmish line and as Hare looked back downstream he saw only about fifty Indians riding up and down, firing. Dr. Porter did not remember any firing until the men were dismounting. The Indians were riding around and around, coming closer, and the firing became more intense. When the line was formed there may have been fifty Indians out front and now about seventy-five to a hundred fighting the troops. So to me it seems quite likely the Indians seen “running like devils” in the flats of Reno Creek were the same group coming back up the LBH valley, and the same group forming a screen so the village could gather its wits and send more warriors to the scene and allow families to begin running. That ties events together without having to come up with separate explanations for each event; it is reasonable, logical, and it points out what was confronting these soldiers until they dismounted. We can make a reasonable guess that the “fifty” only grew rather than diminished and those fifty were what Reno was facing until he came closer and closer to the woods. But did he? Says who? Martini, that’s who. The problem is, the village wasn’t quiet and the comment was a figment of Martini’s imagination. No one can convince me that once Reno hit the valley that village remained quiet until up to the time Custer viewed it on the bluffs. What sense does that make? First of all there is the issue of Martini even seeing anything in the valley. Where was he, physically? Other than the passing Gray Horse Troop, only three riders were seen on the bluffs. Two were ID’ed as GAC and Bill Cooke. Whether you believe that or not it makes sense. Why would Martini be the third? Why would Custer need an orderly there? And especially an orderly who barely spoke English. Custer had a host of orderlies and flag-bearers and there was his brother, Tom, his titular A-d-C. So as far as I am concerned the only time Martini saw into the valley was on his return trip when he reported Reno still on the skirmish line. The only way he could have mistaken the village for sleeping was if he saw—quite plausibly—the Spotted Tail village on the river’s east bank flats: about twenty warriors and probably no more than a half-dozen to ten lodges… one might think that at the first sound of gunfire these few warriors would have made for the river, either crossing it or hiding in the bushes until they could figure out what was happening. Except for running dogs, that would certainly make that little village seem deserted or asleep. I would think there is a lot of truth in this statement. I am less inclined to believe this comment. First of all, it would have been unnecessary, but that is immaterial. The more important issue is there was no wholesale movement away from the Reno end of the valley until a good twenty or more minutes after the arrival of Benteen’s command. I really like Mac’s approach here because it allows a great discussion of how these events tie in to one another creating a flow, rather than treating them all separately. Just like your air force and navy are doing in the Indian Ocean, a great job Mac. Best wishes, Fred.
|
|
|
Post by Yan Taylor on Apr 15, 2014 12:21:50 GMT -6
When Martini mentions about seeing this quiet village, he must be referring to 3411, now I agree that he should be behind a host of more prominent figures in being that third man, and I would dearly love someone to tell me that if I put an average sized dog in the location of the village, it is possible to spot it from 3411, with or without the tepees and dust and stuff.
Would Custer get a better view of the village if he went to the ground located at the mouth of MTC? He would be nearer for one, or would the tree line and Greasy Grass ridge/hill obscure his line of sight and giving him just a partial view?
It could be that when the Indians in the valley were chasing Reno, Custer could have been approaching the ground above ford B, and any Warriors still in the village would be weighing up what the soldiers were going to do next, if they saw them moving along the ridge line they would track them and hopefully be able to block them if and when they tried to cross the river.
This is why I learn towards the notion that there was no major Indian attack across the river until later, I would be inclined to think that any Indians defending the village would rather keep the river between themselves and the soldiers, that would make sense to me and when they did cross it was when they built up enough numbers to be able to confront the army with the ability to do some damage.
Ian.
|
|
|
Post by fred on Apr 15, 2014 14:02:55 GMT -6
When Martini mentions about seeing this quiet village, he must be referring to 3411, now I agree that he should be behind a host of more prominent figures in being that third man, and I would dearly love someone to tell me that if I put an average sized dog in the location of the village, it is possible to spot it from 3411, with or without the tepees and dust and stuff. Not the village; the subsidiary village on the east bank. Very easily seen from 3,411... including "sleeping" dogs. You are making an assumption here that may or may not be valid. Why are you interested in the village, per se? You would be interested in only a couple of things: (1) how much farther downstream does it extend? (2) What's going on in the valley? You are giving these guys wa-a-ay too much credit. The LBH was a battle of act-react. While I agree with you about a "later-rather-than-sooner" Indian attack across the river, it was more of a move than attack. "Built up" implies planning and I do not believe there was any; act-react, and when they were secure enough and mad enough, bang!Best wishes, Fred.
|
|
|
Post by Colt45 on Apr 15, 2014 18:27:08 GMT -6
I believe Fred has it nailed when he says the village was in act-react mode. In fact, I think the whole event was act-react from the time Reno was seen approaching from the south. Some of the NDN accounts mentioned alerting each other of Reno's advance, and that they went to that "party" as they were. Others reacted by preparing their war paint, hair, horses, etc. All of this would filter to the northern end of the village by word of mouth, and later gunfire, but this would take time. And when Custer is spotted, a lot of the folks not already down by Reno would start reacting to his presence. Again it would take time to alert the warriors engaged with Reno of the new threat, and for warriors to begin filtering back downstream toward ford B. Of course, during this flowing time, Reno is either in the woods or starting his breakout to the bluffs.
Custer probably arrived at ford B and doesn't see a lot of activity, as the warriors were still beginning to disengage some of their force from Reno to move toward Custer, hence he sees the middle of the village, doesn't receive a lot of fire, feels he can move north to continue with his ill-fated half-baked plan, again a reaction to events, and makes it to Calhoun hill while the hostiles are just getting enough folks together to cross the river and go on the attack. As the NDNs realize Reno is beaten and "heading for the hills", they can send even more warriors toward Custer. Again this is a reaction to events.
The only "action", in my opinion, was when Reno crossed at ford A and launched the attack. Everything else was a reaction. Nothing Custer did from ford A onward was a prime action on his part, just reactions to everything else. A "flow of events" analysis really does make it easier to understand how things happened, instead of looking at the isolated events during the course of the battle.
When I was a child and I disturbed a large wasp nest, everything I did after they began swarming was a reaction, and a very hasty one at that.
|
|
|
Post by welshofficer on Apr 15, 2014 18:56:44 GMT -6
"While I agree with you about a "later-rather-than-sooner" Indian attack across the river, it was more of a move than attack. "Built up" implies planning and I do not believe there was any; act-react, and when they were secure enough and mad enough, bang!"
Fred,
Another good thread started by Mac.
What do you think was the "tipping point", the moment the NAs went "bang"?
WO
|
|
|
Post by tubman13 on Apr 15, 2014 20:43:49 GMT -6
"While I agree with you about a "later-rather-than-sooner" Indian attack across the river, it was more of a move than attack. "Built up" implies planning and I do not believe there was any; act-react, and when they were secure enough and mad enough, bang!" Fred, Another good thread started by Mac. What do you think was the "tipping point", the moment the NAs went "bang"? WO Is this thread converging with" Did Custer have a plan?" How many NA's never got to their ponies, but were armed and waiting to spring upon the new threat, hidden in and near the center of the village? As the threat dissipated at ford B, how many warriors crossed the river on foot to throw up a delaying action? Were these the original NA's to fall upon Keogh and Calhoun? How quickly did the word spread to the warriors engaged with Reno?
Regards, Tom
|
|
|
Post by Yan Taylor on Apr 16, 2014 2:38:13 GMT -6
What do you think was the "tipping point", the moment the NAs went "bang"?
“Lame Whiteman’s charge”
|
|
|
Post by Yan Taylor on Apr 16, 2014 2:58:07 GMT -6
I do not believe there was any; act-react, and when they were secure enough and mad enough, bang!
Fred I think you have a way of taking what I am trying to get across and explaining it better, they were secure for the moment in the sense that the soldiers moved away from the ford and onto the high ground, I would imagine their anger would be high and this along with word of the other group of soldiers being beaten (Reno) would give their moral a boost, this I expect would increase as their numbers swelled. I would imagine that they infiltrated first, probably in small groups using the land and probably Deep Coulee as an avenue to out flank the soldiers, any place’s like Calhoun Coulee be used as gathering points and C Company may have wandered into such an area, but it would take something to make the soldiers run, and I think that C Company running along with Lame Whiteman charge is what started the ball rolling.
|
|
|
Post by mac on Apr 16, 2014 6:00:03 GMT -6
We know not all the warriors at the Reno fight went back to fight Custer in fact although a lot did, I think the majority did not. If we look at Fuchs post above there were plenty of men left in the village to take on Custer. This is what I am getting at. When Custer goes down MTC the Reno fight is underway and indeed near to the Reno withdrawal, so obviously those guys are not worrying Custer at that time. What about the rest of the warriors? My thought is they are occupied preparing for battle and will soon realise Custer is there and start moving to him rather than South. The timing of this could be very significant in terms of the way Custer reacts to the situation as it unfolds. It may also say why numbers build so quickly against Calhoun Hill. Cheers
|
|
|
Post by Yan Taylor on Apr 16, 2014 6:30:43 GMT -6
Hi Mac, yes there would be a fair amount still in the village parameters, but this place was so immense that just for these men to congregate in fighting bands would take a fair amount of time, initially they would be small groups running to meet up with others and forming larger bands, this could have happened either in the vill itself or in the coulees and ravines on the eastern bank.
I don’t care how brave these warriors are, they would be fools to take on a Troop of Cavalry in a band of say half a dozen strong, so rather the emphasis would be on forming into larger more potent bands before they moved against the soldiers rather than the odd warrior taking long range pot shots (although this would have happened).
Ian.
|
|