|
Post by Yan Taylor on Apr 21, 2014 12:16:39 GMT -6
Chuck that’s uncanny, that’s was just how it was and with me carving.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Apr 21, 2014 13:18:37 GMT -6
You see that light fixture above your dining room table. If you look closely you will see my camera.
|
|
|
Post by mac on Apr 21, 2014 16:18:54 GMT -6
My security people are sweeping the house as we speak lest my secret lamb recipe is revealed!
I am still interested in the timing for the movement of Indians back from Reno to say MTC. (Any idea of the ride time for them AZ?) It seems to me this may be consistent with an increase in Indian morale and aggression. As I understand it as Custer leaves MTC, Reno is heading for the hills. So soon after Custer moves up to Calhoun their will be victorious men coming back to reinforce those that have left the village and put up a defence against the Custer threat. Lame White Man makes a good tactical decision when he mounts his charge but could it be predicated on confidence that one threat has been taken care of and so can this one. I know Lame White Man was not at the Reno fight but could the tipping point here not just be C going too close to Greasy Grass but doing so just as the warriors were gaining men from Reno who are highly motivated and confident? Cheers
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Apr 21, 2014 17:15:51 GMT -6
I already have it so it is a wasted effort. My network of spies extends Down Under, and they are particularly fond of vacationing in the Outback. Hardy folk those spies of mine.
I think it very likely you are correct. The build up had reached critical mass when LWM did his thing. Were it otherwise I don't think the Keogh position would have gone under as quickly as it did. It seems one fluid motion from C to L at least.
|
|
|
Post by Yan Taylor on Apr 21, 2014 17:27:48 GMT -6
Well Mac you are looking at a distance of about 2 ¾ miles from say Reno’s Skirmish line to the mouth of MTC, how long it would take by pony I cannot say my friend.
Chuck I remember you saying that you once spoke on the telephone to Obama, now you said it was a call for your wife, but I am not sure, Hmmm…I think you are linked to a network of spies and we are all under scrutiny.
Yes I agree LWM would not have made his charge unless he knew that he had back up, I have read that the Indian attack had stalled and LWM wanted to kick start the momentum and what better way than to put yourself in mortal danger.
Ian.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Apr 21, 2014 18:36:36 GMT -6
I did speak to him. He did call my wife. He was not President at the time. It was while he was running for President for his first term. I just answered the phone.
And yes, my people are all very proficient at flying black helicopters. Lamb recipes are their speciality though. Each of my helicopters is fitted with specially designed SLLRDR (Side Looking Lamb Recipe Detecting Radar)
Lame White Man: I can think of a thousand better ways than putting one's self in mortal danger.
|
|
|
Post by mac on Apr 21, 2014 18:54:43 GMT -6
I too have read that the attack had stalled but remember LWM was not prepared for battle; he was a first responder who simply grabbed his stuff and got out there. The point being that probably initially it was not so much an attack as a defensive screen. So Custer can leave MTC feeling that there is lots of running and little resistance. By the time he gets to Calhoun this has radically changed as warriors have moved out of the village and significantly back from Reno. After Custer is gone Keough may see this building and could send C out to do a clearance but the terrain does it's work and C go too far then the whole thing collapses very quickly. I think if we can understand the timing of the Indian movements that can help form a better idea of the how and why. We spend a lot of time on cavalry timing but it takes two to tango. Cheers
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Apr 21, 2014 22:12:38 GMT -6
WELL NOW. Unless we can check the radio log in Sitting Bull's operations van, I am not sure that we can go to far down this path of Indian timing.
This is one I think we had best wait for Fred to comment on.
I agree in principle though, getting a handle on times, and specifically the time that the majority broke off from Reno, is the key to understanding when the Indians achieved critical mass.
|
|
|
Post by mac on Apr 21, 2014 23:20:13 GMT -6
I thought you had Sitting Bull's buffalo roast recipe QC.
I understand that exactness is not possible but nevertheless some reasonable time estimates would be interesting just to see if any "coincidence" can be discerned. For example a ballpark figure on - a gallop from Reno to MTC, - a cavalry withdrawal to Calhoun (I may have that must look when I get home), - about how long would a warrior take to prepare for battle (variable I am sure but roughly???), - a trip on foot up the hill towards Calhoun for a warrior (steep and fairly hard trip I suspect). These kinds of figures matched against cavalry timing might be interesting in understanding the overall flow of the action. I better start saving for a trip! Cheers
|
|
|
Post by AZ Ranger on Apr 22, 2014 6:33:27 GMT -6
My security people are sweeping the house as we speak lest my secret lamb recipe is revealed! I am still interested in the timing for the movement of Indians back from Reno to say MTC. (Any idea of the ride time for them AZ?) It seems to me this may be consistent with an increase in Indian morale and aggression. As I understand it as Custer leaves MTC, Reno is heading for the hills. So soon after Custer moves up to Calhoun their will be victorious men coming back to reinforce those that have left the village and put up a defence against the Custer threat. Lame White Man makes a good tactical decision when he mounts his charge but could it be predicated on confidence that one threat has been taken care of and so can this one. I know Lame White Man was not at the Reno fight but could the tipping point here not just be C going too close to Greasy Grass but doing so just as the warriors were gaining men from Reno who are highly motivated and confident? Cheers There are no terrain features that would slow individual riders. The drainage that stopped Reno in formation should have less effect on small groups of riders. So its just whatever distance you pick and how fast they traveled. 15-20 miles per hour would not be out of line. So for example 2 miles at 20 mph would take 6 minute or 3 miles at 15 mph would take 12 minutes. AZ Ranger
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Apr 22, 2014 8:35:28 GMT -6
Mac: My people missed that one. Had they been there however we would be calling it Sitting Bull's Last Stand.
I think AZ's figures are quite reasonable. Of course those that went from Reno directly to Custer at the Cemetery Ridge area would take longer and I think the lower of 15 to 20, perhaps slightly less would be more accurate for them (just a guess mind you). That leaves us with when did they start, and I suspect that time can reasonably be assumed as shortly after Custer appeared at MTC Ford. Then I believe it must be determined what time elapsed from the Indians started leaving Reno until Reno reached the bluffs. That will tell us more about what we seek, the point of critical mass against Keogh. At that point critical mass against Custer would be immaterial. We would know it was sometime after Keogh and I think that sufficient for what we are trying to determine.
I think we can also assume those first mounted men coming from Reno, concentrated their efforts by going across the ford and in the main directly to the Henryville area, that seemingly being the easiest and most direct route for mounted men. Those first across though, the ones who faced Custer at MTC were in all probability the infiltrators moving through the broken ground. They are the ones I feel that are critical to the understanding of the Keogh position being overrun.
Just as a sidebar. The generally accepted 900 to a 1000 that faced Reno having about half of that number also engaging Keogh and Custer, I wonder what the rest did, and does that too tell us something about the timing of the Custer/Keogh portion of the battle? Somehow I just don't see some hotshot eighteen year old pumped up with the piss and vinegar of battle, deciding to sit the second act out by eating popcorn in the lobby, when his brothers are about to round up and put paid to Roy Rogers, Gene Autry AND the Lone Ranger. So they either stayed around Reno a lot longer than is generally known, and at a distance, or the Custer battle was all over but the scalping by the time they got there.
|
|
|
Post by Yan Taylor on Apr 22, 2014 10:58:04 GMT -6
Good point Chuck, if both groups (Keogh and Custer/Yates) got into trouble at virtually the same time then I wonder if most of the Reno fighters went to fight Keogh, except for Crazy Horse who may have attacked between the two groups, and the ones that hit Custer/Yates group (from the north, northeast and west came from Indians that never got to Reno.
Whatever happened to the other 500 I don’t know, maybe some of them turned on Weir and Benteen.
Ian.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Apr 22, 2014 11:21:11 GMT -6
Ian: I think the key point we must all remember here is that Keogh was in trouble, fatal trouble, long before he realized it. Chances are Custer realized he was in deep do do, up near CR right away.
Somehow I don't think all those Indians turned their backs on Reno either. We know that they skirmished on the bluff, as Banteen arrived. Now they did not have central direction, but neither were they stupid. As far as they knew Benteen arriving to assist Reno may very well have been the first of many such arrivals. Under those circumstance a complete turning your back would have been completely stupid. Now we know that there was no one else coming, but they did not. I suspect they backed off, and watched, and in so doing were quite well aware of what Reno/Benteen were doing, and in what numbers they eventually had.
|
|
|
Post by fuchs on Apr 22, 2014 11:49:33 GMT -6
The generally accepted 900 to a 1000 that faced Reno having about half of that number also engaging Keogh and Custer, I wonder what the rest did, and does that too tell us something about the timing of the Custer/Keogh portion of the battle? Somehow I just don't see some hotshot eighteen year old pumped up with the piss and vinegar of battle, deciding to sit the second act out by eating popcorn in the lobby, when his brothers are about to round up and put paid to Roy Rogers, Gene Autry AND the Lone Ranger. So they either stayed around Reno a lot longer than is generally known, and at a distance, or the Custer battle was all over but the scalping by the time they got there. I think there are several factors that led quite a lot of warriors to abort the fight during or after the Reno part. Obviously killed and wounded couldn't move on to the Custer part. There were more than a dozen killed, and probably at least again as much wounded. Then we have likely one or two others looking after each of those casualties. Then we have quite a lot of warriors that started the fight on foot, many of those wouldn't have the opportunity to get mounted in time to get into the Custer fight. Of those that did get into the fight on a horse, a significant number would have killed, wounded or simply exhausted horses, and only some of those would get a remount in time. A few would be more interested in looting killed soldiers, and getting back captured horses than looking for yet another fight. The first responders against Reno would likely include some boys and older warriors that fought in the immediate defense of the camp, but didn't pursue the retreating soldiers, and then retreated together with or after the families. There might have been a number of warriors that felt it justified to defend themselves against an immediate threat, but otherwise had qualms to actively go after the soldiers. I can easily see 200 or 300 warriors that took part in the Reno fight, but due to the above reasons were unwilling or unable to move on to the Custer fight. And keep in mind that those "900" are "generally accepted" for a lack of anything better, and is more likely to be to high than too low; with about 1000 pretty much the absolute possible ceiling calculated from the available population and Fred's Participants named warrior compilation. The "about 1/2 of the warriors fighting Reno moved on to Custer" based on Fred's data are on a much more solid foundation.
|
|
|
Post by Colt45 on Apr 22, 2014 12:16:37 GMT -6
Fuchs, I think you are on to something there in that those that took part in the Reno timber action probably didn't all remain in the area once Reno moved to the bluffs. Some did, but a lot would have done as you suggested, some moving toward Custer, some going back to their families, some going for another mount. It's also possible some of the first Reno fighters joined the second fight against Reno once Custer had been polished off. Remember how at Weir point, Weir and the troops with him saw a large number of NA's coming from the Custer sector right toward them, and they had to fight in retreat back to Reno Hill. I would hazard a guess that the force that moved from the Custer sector consisted of the NA's that first went after Custer, joined by some of the first Reno fight warriors who got to the Custer sector too late to do any more than gather souvenirs and then proceed toward Weir point with the rest of their gang. If that is the case, some of the warriors from the first Reno fight would have had time to go back to their families, refresh, reload, remount, etc., then proceed toward Custer, or skip the Custer phase entirely and join up to go back at Reno on the bluffs.
Once Reno was surrounded on the bluffs, it's a safe bet that all the NA's at one point or another took a place on the line after rotating in and out of action as the need dictated. These rotations probably occurred through the evening of the 25th and most of the day of the 26th, until the NA's disengaged and beat feet for the Big Horn mountains.
|
|