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Post by Yan Taylor on Apr 18, 2014 4:07:40 GMT -6
I recall reading or hearing somewhere that Calhoun’s men took up positions initially on Henryville, and that they moved back up the hill to Calhoun Hill.
When I look at how the markers flow from FFR to Calhoun and on to Keogh going along the top of Custer Ridge, I wondering if the men actually broke before they were cut off? What I mean is when they saw Indians moving on both flanks they ran before they got surrounded and suffered casualties as they ran.
Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Apr 18, 2014 4:34:10 GMT -6
No telling what one reads and hears about LBH Ian, but I suspect I would not choose low ground like Henryville for my initial position, and I don't think you or anyone with an once of sense would either.
I believe their initial position was oriented southwest about half way down Calhoun Hill, well below the military crest, and they were forced back first to approximately the military crest. Only when they half changed fronts did they go to the top in that area where the road circle, and markers are now.
To comment on your second paragraph, if you remember that tsunami that the world saw pictures of on the day after Christmas a few years ago, where the debris was washed away with the incoming wave, that is how I envision both C and L. Maybe I too, but, but certainly the first two.
There was no staunch two and a half hour defense like Keogh likes to portray, so that he may salvage some grace, by being a fanboy of Goldilocks. It was a relatively slow but steady build up of power over a little more than half an hour followed by the dam breaking. Keogh's notions are yet to be potty trained, and he himself is about as real as a Kosher pork chop.I think it was he who proposed that L in Henryville thing back several years ago. Maybe not.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Apr 18, 2014 12:49:18 GMT -6
Well here is our old fried Custer Apollo, I may have posted this before if so I apologise, but if you would like to see it again then just let it run till it gets to 2.00 minutes and here what he says about Calhoun on Henryville, the big question is how does he know this? link
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Post by quincannon on Apr 18, 2014 14:00:38 GMT -6
I don't believe he explained it very well. What I think he intended was to say they were lower down the hill toward Henryville initially. I agree with that and I just stated it a little differently above. The first of those skirmish lines I spoke of are fairly close, but still on the hillside and not in the deep low ground of Henryville. The only way any soldiers would have been IN Henryville itself is if the were oriented due west and both Calhoun on the right and Nye-Cartwright on their left were also held.
I believe there is more of a chance of Lady Gaga singing Jimmie Crack Corn at a country barn dance then there is of Calhoun deploying in Henryville itself.
That would put the probable location of the horses five to six hundred meters in his rear. Don't think so. Where I put his first position is far enough away as it is, and most probably too far.
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Post by welshofficer on Apr 19, 2014 19:42:04 GMT -6
That would put the probable location of the horses five to six hundred meters in his rear. Don't think so. Where I put his first position is far enough away as it is, and most probably too far. QC
It would be crazy for Calhoun to have put any further distance between himself and his horses. As you say, it was already too far for any comfort and certainly when C company got itself into trouble and the survivors fell back towards probable L company protection.
WO
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Post by quincannon on Apr 19, 2014 21:34:45 GMT -6
WO: It is the probable location of those horses, and those two skirmish lines,one half way down, and the other at the military crest of that hill, that lead me to speculate that the C Company move was in some way intended to aid Company L. Any fire received by L in the direction C went would be enfilading fire. I see Company C going down there to shoo away what they thought to be an annoyance, then intending to cut back and give L a hand disengaging.
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Post by Colt45 on Apr 19, 2014 21:58:56 GMT -6
QC, You are probably right that C moved out due to fire received from the greasy grass area, and from the NA's on foot working their way up toward L's position, but I think the big blunder was in going as far down the hill as they did. The resulting counterattack when they dismounted would indicate this. It's also possible the NA's were baiting the cavalry to charge them, much the same way Crazy Horse baited Fetterman. C company moved into range of the rifles at greasy grass ridge, which gave the firepower advantage to the NAs. They should have stayed near or at the military crest, facing greasy grass, which from that point was out of effective range of the NA weapons, but still within range of the Springfields. I don't recall exactly, but isn't the distance from Calhoun Hill to Greasy Grass ridge around 600 yards?
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Post by Yan Taylor on Apr 20, 2014 3:10:10 GMT -6
Colt, its a little more like 1000 yards, FFR is around 650 to 700 yards from Calhoun Hill which would make any withdraw on foot rather hellish when you consider it, running for your life up hill waring boots in that heat and being chased by hundreds of Indians, doesn't bare thinking about.
Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Apr 20, 2014 8:14:40 GMT -6
I believe C's intent was to give Calhoun Coulee a laxative, flush it out. Company C went down in that coulee only to be chased up to FF Ridge. FF Ridge was to far. Any immediate threat to L was from Calhoun Coulee. Had those infiltrators continued to move it would place them eventually in L's rear between the dismounts and the horses. Were L to be in either one of those first two skirmish lines, and those Indians from the coulee to get between them and their horses they were toast. I think they were at one of them when C moved, probably the one nearest the military crest. Once C got in trouble, Calhoun moved to the top, and split, one half still addressing Henryville, and the other half trying to cover what was left of C withdrawing.
Another thing from the Custer Apolo clip. Company L dismounted as skirmishers, and C and I in reserve, does that sound like good tactics to anyone? If there was a reserve, and the jury is still out, I think that reserve was only Company C. C was in the middle position (we think) and could therefore react to either L or I.
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Post by Colt45 on Apr 20, 2014 11:40:25 GMT -6
I don't really think anyone was deliberately positioned as a reserve. The whole Custer part of the battle probably only lasted about an hour, so things were moving quickly. There were also way too few troopers to be hanging lots of folks out in reserve. I agree that at best, C only was a reserve, and probably not really acting as a reserve, but Keogh was trying to cover as much terrain as possible, given the rapid envelopment of his troops that was occurring. Their charge was probably to protect the right flank of L company, and again I think they advanced too far, getting themselves into a hopeless position. I think the timing of NA advancement eliminates any thought of prolonged defence and therefore stationing of a company in reserve. Custer Apollo talks at several different areas of the battle of Custer deploying troops in reserve. This is mere supposition on his part as no one was left to give the details of the orders given during the battle. His videos are not bad at all, but a lot of his conclusions are presented as facts when they are only suppositions.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Apr 20, 2014 12:27:23 GMT -6
Hello Colt, to be truthful I watch Apollo Custer’s video work to see the lay out of the land, he can get a little carried away with himself sometimes when he describes his version of events.
It was in one of his videos that I saw that Calhoun Coulee was out of eye shot of Calhoun Hill, he was standing in the area and pointed in the direction of CH and he said it’s just out of sight over that hill.
That could be the reason C Company may went that far down and got a shock when they saw what was hanging around the place and all virtually out of sight of their initial position up on the high ground.
I think that C Company may have stayed mounted because this may have been planned as a short halt, I hope that the military folks on this board will clarify this but if you place two thirds of your strength in firing lines then it would make sense to keep the other third mounted because you don’t know when you will need them, and if you were staying put then they could have been better served placing all three Companies on the firing line that way they could defend the area and cover more ground with fields of fire.
Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Apr 20, 2014 13:26:15 GMT -6
A few days ago I commented on the fact that period cavalry seemed to be very comfortable operation in twos, and this comfort extended as far as WWII with cavalry groups and armored division combat commands. Reading of battles like Kelly's Ford, Brandy Station, and Aldie Gap, we see that a two company squadron would dismount one and leave the other mounted. It worked the same way with squadrons one dismounting the other remaining mounted. So I would see nothing unusual given the speculative temporary nature of the south battle ridge positions for them to operate this way. I agree with Ian that two dismounted I and L with C in the saddle makes the most sense, based upon what we think we know. I also agree with Colt, and that agreement is not at cross purposes with what I just said. When you have little, the least most engaged becomes your reserve. So if you must tag a reserve, in my mind that would be C, but that does not preclude C from being active prior to their move down into the coulee.
Ian I will answer your PM here My best to you and Sue this Easter. And may you eat so much your dreams of these next days will be filled with Rack of Lamb.
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Post by welshofficer on Apr 20, 2014 21:42:57 GMT -6
Hello Colt, to be truthful I watch Apollo Custer’s video work to see the lay out of the land, he can get a little carried away with himself sometimes when he describes his version of events. It was in one of his videos that I saw that Calhoun Coulee was out of eye shot of Calhoun Hill, he was standing in the area and pointed in the direction of CH and he said it’s just out of sight over that hill. That could be the reason C Company may went that far down and got a shock when they saw what was hanging around the place and all virtually out of sight of their initial position up on the high ground. I think that C Company may have stayed mounted because this may have been planned as a short halt, I hope that the military folks on this board will clarify this but if you place two thirds of your strength in firing lines then it would make sense to keep the other third mounted because you don’t know when you will need them, and if you were staying put then they could have been better served placing all three Companies on the firing line that way they could defend the area and cover more ground with fields of fire. Ian. Ian
I think one of the mistakes that some posters make is to talk in in terms of reserves/flanks, as if this is a Prussian staff officer carefully making dispositions. This was a very fluid situation, and I can't believe that Keogh was thinking in such rigid terms as we would interpret such terminology. This was not turf that Keogh needed to hold. Custer/Yates had gone north along battle ridge, so they had a rear that needed some sort of protecting. Benteen was expected from the south, so L was engaging NAs at Henryville and keeping an eye out for that possible link up. You could say that C and I were covering the right and left flank of L respectively, or you could say that one or both was a reserve. My concern is that all were out of range of effective support of each other. I don't think any 7th cavalry mounted company would concentrate much firepower (how many bullets were they allowed to use each month on training, let alone mounted?), and of course they had no sabres. What I think was the problem was Harrington overplaying his hand and getting into trouble whilst flushing out Calhoun Coulee. He needs to stay well out of NA effective range. As you say, that retreat for the C company survivors was not a good place to be. That to me looks like the first domino, and from there Custer's wing was rolled up to the last man very quickly. No stockpiles of used cartridges other than on Calhoun Hill. Just Benteen and others on the 27th visiting the battlefield and scratching their heads as to what happened.
Easter greetings to all.
WO
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Post by Yan Taylor on Apr 21, 2014 4:35:48 GMT -6
I’ll tell you what guy’s, we have taken the Keogh sector of events further forward then most of the books or articles I have ever read, at one time there was a notion that Keogh and his Company I were sat (or stood) twiddling their thumbs in a swale totally oblivious to the events going down around FFR and Calhoun hill, so how’s that for progress. Initially I have been reluctant to go too far with this topic because a good friend of mine is about to release a book which brings to light events surrounding the Keogh sector (Happy Easter Fred) so I wouldn’t want to impede on his work.
Chuck, how did you know we had lamb? (With mint sauce, roast potatoes and steamed veg). Anyway we are off to the big super league game, we are hosting St Helens this afternoon, C'mon the Vikings.
Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Apr 21, 2014 8:08:31 GMT -6
Ian: My spies are everywhere, including your local grocery store.
We have gone far, because I believe we concentrate on "most probable" rather than take a day trip to Wonderland. Everything that happened can never be determined. We only have what remained to sort through, and what remained, little as it is, can at least tell us where the final acts took place. You can then assume that reasonable men do reasonable things, and determine some manner of broad outline. That is the best that can be done, I think.
Just like Ian's lamb. Ian being a reasonable man, I have determined through observation of him that he is a man of tradition, therefore I find it likely that being reasonable and one who honors tradition, it is most probable that lamb was on the menu for his Easter dinner, and that would be especially so were it to be a family dinner, him at the head of table with children and grandchildren all around. Just seems like something he would do based upon my knowledge of the man. The mint sauce did not come as a surprise either.
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