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Post by welshofficer on Apr 22, 2014 12:26:23 GMT -6
Ian: I think the key point we must all remember here is that Keogh was in trouble, fatal trouble, long before he realized it. Chances are Custer realized he was in deep do do, up near CR right away. Somehow I don't think all those Indians turned their backs on Reno either. We know that they skirmished on the bluff, as Banteen arrived. Now they did not have central direction, but neither were they stupid. As far as they knew Benteen arriving to assist Reno may very well have been the first of many such arrivals. Under those circumstance a complete turning your back would have been completely stupid. Now we know that there was no one else coming, but they did not. I suspect they backed off, and watched, and in so doing were quite well aware of what Reno/Benteen were doing, and in what numbers they eventually had. QC,
How many NAs stayed with Reno, and the impact of the returners on other deployments, are critical. To the west of the ridge, I suspect existing NAs were literally being driven northwards by new arrivals from Keogh towards Custer/Yates by the returners. As we know, Crazy Horse moved northwards east of Battle Ridge.
WO
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Post by welshofficer on Apr 22, 2014 12:28:09 GMT -6
Ian: I think the key point we must all remember here is that Keogh was in trouble, fatal trouble, long before he realized it. Chances are Custer realized he was in deep do do, up near CR right away. Somehow I don't think all those Indians turned their backs on Reno either. We know that they skirmished on the bluff, as Banteen arrived. Now they did not have central direction, but neither were they stupid. As far as they knew Benteen arriving to assist Reno may very well have been the first of many such arrivals. Under those circumstance a complete turning your back would have been completely stupid. Now we know that there was no one else coming, but they did not. I suspect they backed off, and watched, and in so doing were quite well aware of what Reno/Benteen were doing, and in what numbers they eventually had. QC,
Now that is a very good post.
I am 100% with you on the Keogh battalion. He was always operating under a sense of security that never really existed.
I am undecided about Custer and the Yates battalion. Were they relaxed, just waiting for Keogh/Benteen to join them? Did they think it was battle on, holding until Keogh/Benteen joined them? Or were they fearful of developments long before Keogh was overrun?
I veer towards reasonably comfortable, or at least not overly alarmed, until as late as seeing the last remnants of the Keogh battalion come over Battle Ridge. And then they all instantly knew they were in very deep trouble.
The key is likely to be the NA movements, and what Custer/Yates could observe.
WO
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Post by quincannon on Apr 22, 2014 12:51:30 GMT -6
If anyone took my meaning as those that did not participate against Custer/Keogh, having already engaged Reno, as them not being employed in other, very necessary duties such as Fuchs points out tending to their own casualties and salvaging the field, it was not meant that way. The meaning was that they were not in the later portion of the battle for good reason, and not just sitting on their backsides.
Fuchs I think 900 is a tad to high also. When you find yourself in a trick bag, there is a certain multiplication factor that kicks in. Were I to guess my figure would be in the seven to eight hundred range actually engaged, with another hundred to two straphangers, those in the immediate area but not actually fighting. Later accounts notwithstanding
Two thoughts here:
It is said that if every soldier that yelled General Lee to the rear at the Wilderness, was actually at the Wilderness, the Confederate States of America would exist today.
A similar remark was made about those that served in Mosby's 43rd Partisan Rangers. They would have been referred to as the six corps sized Army of Loudon County.
And they all swore to in on not one, but a stack of Bibles.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Apr 22, 2014 13:03:21 GMT -6
Hi Chuck, after Benteen showed up on Reno Hill he placed a Company in skirmish formation, now that would have been because a threat still existed in the valley, now shuffle forward a little and we have one Officer and his Striker going out on a trek to find Custer, hmmm I have always wondered why this Officer would have not only placed himself in danger but his Striker also as he left without his Company, so this could give us a clue to what may have happened after Benteen arrived, because it sounds like the valley emptied of Indians, I am sure that Varnum or Hare also went back and two over the same ground after Weir left, bottom line is this, would these men have made these journeys is the danger level was still high.
Ian.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2014 14:13:12 GMT -6
Ian posted:
...after Benteen showed up on Reno Hill he placed a Company in skirmish formation, now that would have been because a threat still existed in the valley,
Ian, I think the threat also included warriors atop the bluffs. Dr. DeWolf and his aide were killed from fire above them as they climbed at a point farther north than Reno's command. - iirc.
Best, c.
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Post by quincannon on Apr 22, 2014 16:46:41 GMT -6
It sure did. Anyone have a handle on how long they skirmished with those guys, before any Reno reconstitution could take place?
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Post by welshofficer on Apr 22, 2014 17:31:36 GMT -6
Hi Chuck, after Benteen showed up on Reno Hill he placed a Company in skirmish formation, now that would have been because a threat still existed in the valley, now shuffle forward a little and we have one Officer and his Striker going out on a trek to find Custer, hmmm I have always wondered why this Officer would have not only placed himself in danger but his Striker also as he left without his Company, so this could give us a clue to what may have happened after Benteen arrived, because it sounds like the valley emptied of Indians, I am sure that Varnum or Hare also went back and two over the same ground after Weir left, bottom line is this, would these men have made these journeys is the danger level was still high. Ian. Ian,
I think a sizeable force of some sort had to remain to the south of the camp, especially with Reno visibly being reinforced with another column (Benteen).
How aggressive it was is another issue altogether.
The south end of the camp would not have been left entirely unguarded.
WO
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Post by quincannon on Apr 22, 2014 18:05:11 GMT -6
WO I am anxious for you and Colt to meet Montrose. He has been ill since before you joined. Talked to him today. He is again fit, and will join us in the next little while
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Post by mac on Apr 22, 2014 19:19:27 GMT -6
AZ thanks for your estimate it is about what I had thought. There is an account of Crazy Horse leaving the Reno fight because he has been made aware of the threat at MTC. In this account he leaves Reno without taking part in the victory stuff fuchs has listed so well. He rides back to the village. Timing of the cavalry suggests that when Reno is at the end of his retreat Custer has moved away to Clahoun Hill. This matches with the Crazy Horse account where he reaches the village and Custer is gone so he immediately crosses the river. This seems to jibe (  ) with AZ's ride time estimate to suggest that when CH arrives with his followers the Calhoun position could already be set up. The arrival of these warriors could be an important factor. Cheers |
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Post by quincannon on Apr 22, 2014 19:35:08 GMT -6
Mac: I think you have Crazy Horse doing a gut run up the middle. You are damned right it is important. It fits very well with the forty five to fifty minute length of the battle.
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Post by Colt45 on Apr 22, 2014 20:57:11 GMT -6
QC, I have read a lot of Montrose's post on some of the other threads. Sorry to hear he has been ill, and will be delighted to converse with him when he comes back online. He really seems to know his stuff.
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Post by quincannon on Apr 22, 2014 21:03:24 GMT -6
Lieutenant Colonel, Special Forces. He has seen enough combat for ten lifetimes, and despite it all, he is just one hell of a good guy. A dear friend. You will never have one better. Knowing his stuff is another one of those by now WO trademark understatements.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Apr 23, 2014 2:52:48 GMT -6
Yes I too have missed Montrose and I am not alone, he only posts now and then because of his illness but when he does you know about it, in fact some of the threads he has started are some of my favourites.
According to Flying Hawk, “Crazy Horse followed up a gulch to a place in the rear of the soldiers that were making the stand “now this stand could be on Calhoun Hill and this gulch could be either Deep Ravine or Calhoun Coulee.
Going back to the Indians moving from Reno Hill, the valley must have emptied of Indians because Reno went in search of his Friend and Adjutant Lieutenant Hodgson.
Ian.
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Post by tubman13 on Apr 23, 2014 4:46:02 GMT -6
I have been reading the above for several days with interest and truly have had little to offer until now. I have read and I cant remember where that Crazy Horse never engaged with Reno, as he arrived so late. Reno was contained and he was informed of the threat up river and immediately returned to counter this new threat(Custer et. el.) This might shorten up time frame a small amount, if true.
Regards,
Tom
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Post by AZ Ranger on Apr 23, 2014 6:09:07 GMT -6
I believe CH arrived just as Reno exited the timber in his breakout. What the Indians lacked in planning was made up for with luck.
At what number of visible Indians would Reno have decided that remaining in the timber for a last stand was the only option?
Regards
AZ Ranger
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) with AZ's ride time estimate to suggest that when CH arrives with his followers the Calhoun position could already be set up. The arrival of these warriors could be an important factor.
