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Post by quincannon on Apr 23, 2014 6:27:08 GMT -6
Well, the cats were restless this morning and indicated their desire to be fed at 0400. Speaking of timing I managed to resist until 0500. My last stand was to no avail. I do wish the cats were more like the dog. At this time of the morning Metropolitan Doodle worms her way under the covers and sleeps for three more hours.
I think Montrose both has been missed and is respected by all. I even have a model ship named for him, HMS Montrose, one of my favorites. Can't take credit for naming it. The Royal Navy did that. I only built it. Perhaps in keeping with the Duke Class, Will should now and forevermore be dubbed Duke of Montrose. It has a certain ring to it.
Timing? There are three schools of thought on LBH timing.
There is the quick and dirty, the Errol Flynn School where Custer gets whacked pronto, meeting hordes, and the hordes in swarms that swirled all about him, appearing out of nowhere, as if they grew from the very ground itself, knowing in advance the very spot where he would be. Most reject that the first moment they look upon the terrain, and see how well nye impossible such a scenario is.
Then there is the Custer fanboy, Goldilocks can do no wrong and must have been betrayed school, promulgated by Madam Fluffy, Dime Novel Pimps, and Count Keogh of Queens, According to this school the Custer fight was prolonged, every man fought gallantly to the end, ammunition was carried in a bottomless ammunition pouch, supporting fires reached out a thousand or more meters, skirmish lines were impregnable, cavalry horses dodged arrows, Custer was the paragon of all that is virtue, and met his end only because his subordinates delayed, were cowardly, drunk, had jock itch, hated Custer, and were all Infantry minded. None of this passes the smell test for the very reason you laughed when you read it.
The third is the fight lasted somewhere just short of an hour, that there were no artificial and fabricated delays (the fanboy school requires this), everyone on both sides did their job, some better than others, the Indians, no one purposely let their comrades die, mistakes were made, but in essence the battle followed a natural flow from Reno to Custer, back to Reno/Benteen, in one totally connected fluid motion. No frills, not pretty, just one hell of a relatively short , not so sweet, ass whipping.
Ian: Good point. He did go, as far as the river, which butts up against the bluffs at that point. He did not go until all the flies were shooed away up on the bluffs, and I think he had a responsible idea where Hodgson fell. I suspect by the time he went down there what Indians that remained were policing up the valley, tending to their folks.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Apr 23, 2014 12:06:23 GMT -6
Hello Chuck and good afternoon to the rest of you guys.
I am not 100% sure but Grey says that Benteen may have spent around 50 to 55 minutes on Reno Hill, but Benteen reckons the packs arrived between 1 ¼ and 1 ½ hours after he did, so finding the correct time has so far eluded me.
On the amount of Indians knocking about the place, well Benteen himself said that the Indian numbers went from 900 on his arrival to zilch around 45 minutes later.
Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Apr 23, 2014 12:23:17 GMT -6
I don't remember what Fred has on this, but between these two I suspect Grey is closer than Benteen himself. In combat time has a way of fooling people, even those involved in the center of the action. What seem like minutes can be hours, and hours seem like minutes. We all react this way under high stress. We just don't have historians and people like us trying to parse ours.
That forty-five minute span also seems quite reasonable. A further indication the game was afoot further down river. The last of those nine hundred were the ones that probably never got near Custer.
I find myself using the word reasonable a heck of a lot on this board. To me what appears reasonable is probably the truth, and what on the surface appears unresonable is probably either false or fabricated. I have been fooled a time or two, but as a rule I think this one serves well. It does for me anyway.
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Post by justvisiting on Apr 23, 2014 14:56:34 GMT -6
WO I am anxious for you and Colt to meet Montrose. He has been ill since before you joined. Talked to him today. He is again fit, and will join us in the next little while QC, that is the best news I could get short of being the sole winner of both the Powerball and MegaMillions lotteries! Billy
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Post by mac on Apr 23, 2014 18:17:15 GMT -6
Saw a bit of a documentary from you tube where an historian (Utley from memory) said that Crazy Horse was late to arrive at Reno but that when he did the warriors there gave a cheer and that urged them on to force Reno from the timber. Interesting! No command and control just the impact of a leader. He leaves Reno and heads back to the village and the Custer threat. I wonder if the same could happen at the other end of the battle? Remembering that where CH goes his followers go and they could number up to 200 men. Cheers
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Post by quincannon on Apr 23, 2014 18:38:57 GMT -6
Forcing Reno from the timber, and I mean forcing. I don't think ANYONE forced Reno from the timber. Had they set out to force him that ring would have been as tight as a pair of size 32 jockey shorts on a man with a 50 inch waist.
That decision was Reno's and Reno's alone. For what possible reason would the Indians wish to force Reno from the timber. Would you want to force a mouse from a mouse trap, once it had sprung?
Utley is full of his own press clippings here I think.
As to the second part - Leadership Matters.
I think it reasonable, there's that word again, to ask the question, what did the Indians know and when did they know it. As far as those engaged with Reno knew up to the point, where they chased him across Retreat Ford and up the bluffs, Reno was the only game in town. They had sufficient mass to contain him, and most probably felt his ammunition supply was finite, so a loose ring, drawing fire, would be sufficient, and when the time was right they would pick him like low hanging fruit. Reno also knew that his numbers were low, the expanse of his position larger than could be adequately address with the force he had in hand, and that old bottomless ammunition pouch would run dry. A decision point is before you are critical, and made in anticipation of that critical point being reached in the not far distant future. His decision was made easy by the loose ring. If he was to have a chance to break out, now was the time, not ten or fifteen minutes later leaping into what might be. I think it also reasonable to assume that the Indian mass that confronted him might make it somewhere between very difficult to impossible for a relieving force to break through to him. The longer he waited the chances were that Indian force would increase, not decrease. Getting out, running like hell across and up those bluffs at the same time Custer was discovered as the greater threat, made possible the prospect of Reno seeing tomorrow, and tells us a lot about Indian movements, the time they moved and what caused them to move. Fellows I was born at night, but it was not last night, and there IS A REASON for every purpose under heaven.
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Post by mac on Apr 23, 2014 19:06:24 GMT -6
Point taken QC and the error is probably mine so let's rephrase to his arrival was inspirational and soon after Reno left the timber.
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Post by quincannon on Apr 23, 2014 19:12:29 GMT -6
Oh Mac, I was not trying to make a point with you. My point was Utley's bad history. Not the first time he has gilded the lily.
Here's some more about timing. Crazy Horse becomes aware of the fighting down south. He is in Oville. He girds his loins for battle, powders his nose, puts on his most warrior like fragrance, probably Stetson, does his precombat checks, mutters a few words for posterity, all about twenty minutes time elapsed. Added to say ten finding out what is going on before prep and we have half an hour. Add another ten for the ride from Oville to the rumble on the docks, and another five to ten screwing around getting the lay of the situation. Now we are up to 50 minutes. Now Reno breaks out, but Horsey (that's what his friends call him. He didn't like it but it was a hell of a lot better than Crazy)leaves the area. Now can you just see this P and V leader, saying no I think I'll pass. Not me. So we can make the not to great assumption that the ball has opened at MTC Ford, and the fiddles are warming up for Cotton Eyed Joe, shortly followed by Fire on the Mountain. Crazy Horse never missed a big barn dance in his life.
Conclusion MTC Ford was taking place as Reno retreated and before he made it to the bluffs. Crazy Horse and his nearest and dearest made it as far as the Deep Ravine Fords (C) and went immediately into action. I would welcome other reads of those particular tealeaves.
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Post by mac on Apr 23, 2014 20:16:20 GMT -6
I think your times are pretty good QC. Talking of getting the lay of the land, I came on an interesting quote from Red Feather about Crazy Horse saying that before battle CH always thought about the situation before planning his action perhaps this explains his reputation for battle prowess. Interested in your choice of Deep Ravine Fords as a crossing point but I am at work (can't you tell?) and have no resources to hand but it certainly is one of my probables. Cheers
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Post by quincannon on Apr 23, 2014 20:32:31 GMT -6
It was either Deep Ravine Ford(s) or Ford D. Again mine is a speculation based upon what I think happened and measuring the man (Crazy Horse). Both are possibles I think but I am making the assumption that when Crazy Horse crossed, anxious to get into battle, he was not aware of the Yates Battalion in the environs of Cemetery Ridge. I believe it was CH and his fellows that called Custer attention to Ford C and the dangers it posed. I think Horse was among the first crossing there and on his way to strike the Keogh Battalion by going up Deep Ravine. Those that crossed a little later were the ones first engaged by Custer.
We spend one hell of a lot of ink on Ford D, at least we used to, but B and D are not nearly as important as C in my estimation. C was the place that could get at Keogh's flank. C was the place that emptied into an avenue that would split Custer (that is after the fact knowledge). C was the real bugger in that it led directly into all that broken ground, Let's make that C for CRITICAL
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Post by quincannon on Apr 23, 2014 20:47:30 GMT -6
Tomorrow is the day for Mrs. QC's second and final back operation (I hope) As much as I enjoy the late night crowd, I am calling it a night, because 0400 comes might early, and we drew the short straw for post time 0700, with a reporting time of 0530. Here I thought the medical profession kept bankers hours.
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Post by Colt45 on Apr 23, 2014 20:52:21 GMT -6
Best wishes to Mrs. QC. I hope this is the last back operation (last operation ever I hope).
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Post by mac on Apr 23, 2014 20:56:57 GMT -6
Ditto on what colt said. All the best!
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Post by fuchs on Apr 24, 2014 10:21:44 GMT -6
Remembering that where CH goes his followers go and they could number up to 200 men. And there could have been 50 or even less. AFAIK this number originates from Fred, and is based simply on the Crazy Horse surrender ledger, which listed a total of 217 warriors. Of which only a part would have been present, of those present only a part fought, and of those fighting only a part would have been engaged against either Reno or Custer. I would consider it highly unlikely that any one single war leader, even Crazy Horse, would be able to keep such a number from rushing into the fray, unless they were waiting for the horses to get driven in anyway. And even then most would go off by themselves. A more plausible number would in my opinion be derived from his not-yet warrior society, and his close friends and relatives present, which I imagine closer to 50 than 200, maybe even significantly less than that. Crazy Horse had an organization. I refer to a sort of organization where they don't feast and dance, but they were just followers of [him and consisted of] more than forty selected warriors. This organization was called the Last Child [Society] (Ho-ksi-ha-ka-ta). They were all very brave warriors and always went out with him and fought with him. Edit: and apparently even those Last Child warriors can not be considered automatic candidates for the Crazy Horse followers. Eagle Elk himself met him only briefly and by accident on the Reno battlefield (Hardorff, Lakota Recollections) But no matter the numbers, the morale lifting impact of Crazy Horse entering the fight would likely have been more important than any plausible number of additional warriors closely following him.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Apr 24, 2014 12:02:24 GMT -6
I have read various articles about CHs attack on Keogh’s Battalion but one of my favourites is a story were the author (I cannot recall his name) said that when CH and his band cross the river, they could have been unaware that Custer and Yates had moved off north, if Custer had travelled on the eastside of battle ridge then he would be out of sight from any Indians that crossed the river between the fords of B and C.
Ian.
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