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Post by mac on Apr 25, 2014 2:47:34 GMT -6
Thank you fuchs I agree with you. The quote is "up to" because that is the highest estimate I have seen (probably Fred's) but the point is more, as you say, the effect of his arrival on the morale of those assembled. Ian you may be right about Custer being "invisible" initially and Keogh the focus. QC I agree with your thoughts re Deep Ravine Fords. In all these things it is the "when" that adds weight to their importance in seeing how things happened so quickly. Cheers
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Post by welshofficer on Apr 25, 2014 21:05:21 GMT -6
QC,
Definitely, all the talk is of GAC's "reconnoitres" of Fords B and D.
But Ford C is the killer on the day. It is a NA highway into the right flank of Keogh and the left flank of Yates.
WO
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Post by quincannon on Apr 25, 2014 22:37:46 GMT -6
I feel quite confident that Custer used the back (east) side of that ridge to circle around LSH and get down to the Cemetery Ridge area. I don't think he got all the way to Ford D, but if he did or if he did not, really makes no difference. Using the back side, I think it entirely possible, no probable, that he was not aware that Deep Ravine was an avenue that would cut the two elements off from each other. He later discovered his error, but by then it was far to late.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Apr 26, 2014 4:40:36 GMT -6
Chuck, now you are usually on the ball here, so have you got any ideas why (if he did) used the eastern side to move north, and went back on the western side?
The eastern side would be a good way of masking your movements so on his return he didn’t feel the need to repeat this move, and I have an idea that his outward journey was done without pressure but is inward jaunt was under pressure, now deep ravine would be the likely place for any pressure to originate from but I feel that he could have been harassed before that.
One thing about deep ravine, now if Crazy Horse makes his advance through this avenue thus missing Custer because he is moving in the opposite on the other side of the hill, then when Custer finally reaches his destination the route back would already be full of Indians, so travelling back he would find that the link between himself and Keogh virtually severed, so the issue of time again rears in head, for CH to move up DR GAC must have already made his move north and is returning otherwise CH would have attack him rather than hitting Keogh.
Ian.
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Post by Colt45 on Apr 26, 2014 6:20:30 GMT -6
One of the maps in the NPS book, Custer Battlefield, shows CH coming up from the ford D area, near where the road to the battlefield now sits (north side), and then approaching LSH from the north and east. Since accounts indicate CH got between the troops on battle ridge, thus dividing them, he would have had to do this with a westbound charge, coming from the east side, as the NPS book would indicate, or if he came from DR, then his splitting movement was from the west side. Both these scenarios can't be true. Is there any evidence supporting which approach avenue CH used?
Since some of the NA drawings show troopers running from mounted NA's, I would think this would indicated the troopers fleeing LSH running toward DR, which could indicate CH moved across battle ridge from east to west. Opinions?
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Post by quincannon on Apr 26, 2014 8:43:48 GMT -6
Ian: I believe he (Custer) moved on the east side of the ridhe because it is a big time NO NO to skyline your movements. The east side of the ridge would mask his movements from the direction he was most concerned with the west.
Further I believe Custer had already started his movement and crossed in front of Crazy Horse's pathway up Deep Ravine without either of the them knowing of the others presence. Both of them missed the others movements. Deep Ravine was in actuality a sunken road, and used in much the same way we have heard of sunken roads in other battles in other days, it masked CH's movements in the same manner the ridge masked Custers.
Colt: What did CH know and when did he know it. As far as he knew everyone seen at MTC Ford was now in the Calhoun Hill area. He had no idea Custer had split Yates from Keogh. Crazy Horse was going after what he knew to be there. I just can't see him going the extra distance to Ford D to cross adding much more time to his approach march. The enemy as far as he knew was on the southern half of Battle Ridge, Under those circumstances I believe his only thought was to get at them and engage by the fastest means possible. In all probability when he got to Ford B it was obstructed by others crossing. Therefore the fastest mean was Ford C (Cheyenne or Deep Ravine Fords). No doubt Ford D was used and the Park Service map shows such use, and also undoubtedly up and over Battle Ridge extension and into Custer's rear, and the draw that runs by the cemetery gate and visitors center was used as later routes of advance. I just don't think those routes were used by Horsey.
I also strongly believe that Keogh's I with some remnants engaged Horse and others, starting near the ridge top, and were split, so what we see as far as the general area where they were found is not where they started only where they ended, and those further up battle ridge toward LSH were the result of that split. The majority were forced back in a easterly direction off the ridge with some few moving north toward Custer.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Apr 26, 2014 12:34:49 GMT -6
Hello Chuck, yes I know the crest would expose him for all the world to see and he did like we have said he hugged the eastern side to avoid this, but coming back, all the action seems to be on the western side, so any move back could have taken place on the west slope, so why didn't he repeat his earlier move and hug the eastern slope, the only thing I can think off is that he planed to wait on the west side.
I didn’t exactly make my point before so I will endeavour to try again;
Now we all (or some) think that Custer saw the Indians moving up deep ravine and E Company were in placed to try and stem this flow, but if Crazy Horse had already moved up deep ravine before Custer was finished with his northern ford move, then the area would already be occupied by Indians moving on Keogh, so Custer would have stumbled on a precession of Indians already moving up through deep ravine and attacking battle ridge, now in my mind this changes things, there would be no need to place troops anywhere around cemetery ridge because it would be too late, rather like closing the gate after the horse had bolted, it would have made better sense to try and fight through to Keogh or just place everyone on LSH, or if the situation was lost move east and don’t stop.
Ian.
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Post by Colt45 on Apr 26, 2014 13:28:21 GMT -6
Chuck, I agree coming up DR would be the most direct route to Calhoun Hill area for CH, but if a lot of NAs on foot were already coming up that area, it might have been easier for the mounted NAs to skirt north and circle back around, as per the NPS map. This would especially make sense if they had seen Custer at LSH or Cemetery ridge. We don't know the exact timing of what CH saw and when, but if Custer crested battle ridge for a look-see and was spotted, CH might have felt it was better to flank Custer than charge directly from DR. I know this is making a lot of assumptions, but if Custer let himself be seen at battle ridge or the LSH area before moving toward ford D, then it is a logical assumption that CH would swing north toward the ford D area, perhaps guessing that is where Custer wanted to cross.
If Custer was below battle ridge on the east side, which makes good military sense, he wouldn't have been able to see what was happening either in DR or at ford D until he got around LSH and arrived, at Cemetery Ridge, unless he crested BR for view to the west. The fact Kellogg was found in the ford D area, and that we know Custer halted where the cemetery is today for a short while, makes me think CH may well have attacked first from ford D to flank Custer or attack head-on. If CH came up DR and Custer showed up at the cemetery at roughly the same time, that would place CH between Custer and Keogh. Custer would then either need to attack CH in a southerly heading or retreat to the north, which should not be crawling with NAs. Since we know Custer moved off the cemetery ridge back to LSH, that move makes me believe it was a move forced by pressure from the north and west. That pressure was either CH or other mounted NAs.
Custer's entire afternoon was filled with dumb mistakes. It's not a stretch to believe he added another mistake by topping battle ridge to see the ford D area, thus revealing his position and intentions. It would be a natural reaction for the NAs to try to beat him to ford D and attack from there.
I can easily see CH charging from DR, splitting Keogh and Yates/Custer, as you envision, but I can also see CH coming from the north and hitting battle ridge from the northeast. I am not aware of any evidence or accounts that would eliminate either possiblity for CH's movements. If there is, I hope someone can enlighten me.
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Post by quincannon on Apr 26, 2014 14:25:51 GMT -6
Ian: Crazy Horse had already crossed over and was on his way to battle ridge if not there when Custer was at Cemetery Ridge and saw more Indians coming across Ford C. That is why he deployed E, having no knowledge that CH and his boys had already gone through the barn door and were well into the pasture.
Colt: I believe most of the dismounted warriors initially crossed at B and got behind Greasy Grass Ridge before they started moving into Calhoun Coulee and that other broken ground between Deep Coulee and Deep Ravine. I think there is a good possibility that some of the dismounts also crossed at Ford C but after Horse.
I think the first time Custer was on what we generally call battle ridge was when he was driven there to die. I believe he was slightly east of it until he skirted behind LSH and down that draw by the visitors center, and then there is another draw branching off that one heading generally westward between the cemetery gate and the park entrance. That leads you slightly north of Cemetery Ridge, and from that point the Ford D area would be visible to him.
Kellogg was killed much nearer to Ford C than Ford D. When Gibbon crossed at C that is when Kellogg's body was discovered, I think with one or two others.
Custer had nowhere to go if he tried to get back to Keogh. The two battalions were split beyond the point of redemption.
The guys who went after the horses in the Cemetery Area were the so called Kamikazi Adolescents, CH had better sense than to be with those folks I think.
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Post by welshofficer on Apr 26, 2014 15:08:24 GMT -6
QC I am with you on GAC masking his northwards move with Yates behind Battle Ridge, but there are quite a few accounts of CH attacking East to West. CH was no fool (Fetterman?). He may have crossed at Ford C, but I am reasonably comfortable with CH riding further north and crossing at Ford D. Where were the non-combatants, in case GAC was up to his old tricks? Find them, and then close on GAC. That could easily be Ford D? I agree, if he did, CH separated from the Kamikaze Adolescents (is that American overstatement for temperamental youths? ) Wherever CH crossed, Ford C was a NA highway for many others into the right flank of Keogh and the left flank of Yates. WO
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Post by quincannon on Apr 26, 2014 15:28:09 GMT -6
WO: I think east to west is compatible with CH moving up DR. He goes up and over circling in behind Keogh's battalion. He is mobile, and using that mobility to greatest advantage would be on the east side of battle ridge.
I do not eliminate CH crossing at D, as not being possible. Just think C is more likely. Regardless of who it was crossing early at C they got up that ravine before Custer was aware of them, seeing only those coming later.
I was very surprised on this other thread about Ford C. The park service map clearly shows crossings at B, C, and D.
No. It is my refusal to give credence to idiotic labels applied by historian wantabees. Those horses were a legitimate military target, and I consider suicide boys as latter day Native American fluff.
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Post by welshofficer on Apr 26, 2014 17:13:16 GMT -6
QC
I can buy that scenario, especially if it happened when GAC was sensibly using the ridge as cover.
It doesn't really matter whether CH used Ford C or Ford D, and I am undecided. CH just strikes me as somebody who might have followed the fleeing non-combatants to see if that led to any cavalry trail. He just strikes me as that kind of a fella. No matter, either way.
But it does matter that a hell of a lot of other NA guests definitely did use Ford C.
WO
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Post by welshofficer on Apr 26, 2014 17:29:02 GMT -6
Now we all (or some) think that Custer saw the Indians moving up deep ravine and E Company were in placed to try and stem this flow, but if Crazy Horse had already moved up deep ravine before Custer was finished with his northern ford move, then the area would already be occupied by Indians moving on Keogh, so Custer would have stumbled on a precession of Indians already moving up through deep ravine and attacking battle ridge, now in my mind this changes things, there would be no need to place troops anywhere around cemetery ridge because it would be too late, rather like closing the gate after the horse had bolted, it would have made better sense to try and fight through to Keogh or just place everyone on LSH, or if the situation was lost move east and don’t stop. Ian,
[My bold] That is the soundest advice anybody could have given GAC, from the moment Keogh and Yates "reunited" after Ford B.
Sadly Custer didn't realise until way too late.
WO
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Post by quincannon on Apr 26, 2014 18:01:25 GMT -6
Ian: A commander can only react to what he can see or what others see and tell him. Custer could have done a hell of a lot of things if he had even minimal situational awareness of what was going on around him. He did not. That terrain will fool you. In most places you can't see squat in the areas that count.
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Post by mac on Apr 26, 2014 18:58:54 GMT -6
Crazy Horse was, as I posted earlier, thoughtful. I agree that seeing the occupation of Calhoun he opted to go to Ford C as his approach, unaware of Custer/Yates' movement. Some accounts refer to CH getting behind the cavalry. Other reports say he charged over the ridge, more than once, from West to East to West in a series of brave runs. It is also reported that he liked to dismount to fire his rifle so that he could shoot more accurately.
I propose that after his brave runs split the Yates and Keogh wings and Keogh was overrun by warriors coming from South, West and East, CH seeing Custer on Cemmetary, was thoughtful, and moved over the East side of the ridge to cut off the Easterly retreat. That perhaps is why there is a feeling he looped North to hit from the East, some warriors would have, but I believe CH was in the East of LSH after coming from the South and that is why there was no Eastern escape. He and his mates were dismounted out there shooting anything showing over the ridge. Hence he is a legend of the battle to warriors but not mentioned as being in at the end of the LSH action. You can be sure he would have been there; somewhere. Fanciful? Cheers
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